[edit] more I'M ruining our relationship, not him.

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I don't think you're stupid, but I can understand why you might think most people might.

If I may, I'd like to take a guess about you. You have made a lot of mistakes in your life, done some bad things, and not always lived up to your own expectations or the expectations of others. Am I getting this right so far? And it's not a matter of opinion that you have made a lot of mistakes in your life, done some bad things, and not always lived up to your own expectations or the expectations of others. It's a MATTER OF FACT that you have made a lot of mistakes in your life, done some bad things, and not always lived up to your own expectations or the expectations of others.

So when your boyfriend says he understands, you do not really feel understood. So when he validates you, it's like him saying "It's ok that you make mistakes, it's ok that you do bad things, it's ok that you don't live up to expectations." But you really don't feel ok with it. In fact, you probably feel terrible about it. You want him to understand that you do feel terrible about it. In some ways, you want him to be hard on you like you are hard on yourself.

And why are you hard on yourself? Because you want to be better.

So you want him to be more assertive with you, possibly harder on you, to even sometimes be bluntly mean.

Does any of this I've said make sense, or am I completely off my rocker?



Now on the other hand . . .

I've been on the receiving end of this. I've had girls tell me things like they didn't deserve it, or that she was not a good person. Believe me, it has been the most painful experience I have ever gone through. The most recent time, she told me she had baggage and felt she didn't deserve a relationship, and that I should find someone else. It has been over a year, but it is still hurting. And the funny thing is, I don't want to do better or worse than her. I know she wants to make changes in her life and I want to be there for her. Unfortunately, I didn't KNOW HOW to be there for her. I didn't really know what she needed from me. Maybe she needed me to be meaner? I don't know. I'd do anything to change it. Now I'm the one being hard on himself.

Do really, really think about his feelings. I'd hate to see him go through what I've been going through.

You're exactly right with the first half.
& yeah, I never really thought about how he'd feel when I keep telling him he's too good for me.
I know i'd feel terrible if the roles were reversed.

Thank you - that's actually made things a little clearer. I'm not very good at telling him how I feel, but when he gets home soon, i'll definitely give it my best shot.

Glad I could help.

How do you say it? Say it the same way you've said it on here. The very first post put it into good words. Mix and match from different posts. If you can explain it to us, surely you can explain it to him. Just remember, if you expect him to stand up to you...you need to be able to stand up to him as well.

I can write it; but saying it is different. I stumble over words all the time.

Can you write it out and then read it to him?

My ex finished with me because 'we'd drifted apart' but maybe it was more like this as we were always in contact and rarely with others outside of our respective workmates and family. I didn't get anymore of an explaination and it got to me badly. He definitely need to know as much info as possible and work on it before giving in, if he doesn't know he can't fix it. I wish I'd have got the chance.

Before he came home, I wrote down what I wanted to say and I showed him when he came home.
He read it, and then we talked about it for about an hour (he's gone to get a take-away atm, as we didn't want to cook).
He told me, he though it was better for me that he didn't 'be like all your ex boyfriends'. So I asked him what he meant and he said he thought when he stood up/got angry I would think he was abusive like my exes.

So I told him that wasn't true and there's a big difference between being assertive and confident and being an abusive prick.
Then he told me it's been really difficult for him to just let me do whatever I wanted, especially when some of the things were dangerous and he'll go back to being himself.



Thank you guys.

Sorry for not reading all the other posts before responding, and my apologies if I'm just repeating what has already been said.

I have noticed that women in abusive relationships are NORMALLY from fairly poor family circumstances themselves, probably had a mean drunk of a father, are not well-educated due to a poor study environment in an unstable home, and never grew up to feel that they really had any prospects. Someone I know personally that ended up in a rotten relationship, really because she ended up preggers by her then-bf, eventually took up "exotic dancing" to make ends meet (her husband didn't work, at least not any steady job) and used meth until her teeth were all half-rotted. She got lucky, though. She divorced the deadbeat, moved to a larger city, danced in a "classy" establishment, and ended up with a "gentleman" who has been taking care of her ever since--even her and her four children. They only don't get married and make it "official" because it's the only way she can keep her kids on welfare. But she's clean, her teeth don't look quite as bad--maybe she got some work done, I dunno. But she's a lot happier. The kids even call her bf "daddy," and even his family are very supportive of them in a lot of different ways.

But living where I live, among the dregs of rural society, I see things like this all the time. And the outlook of girls who are either born in or fall into that kind of place is generally very bleak.

Here's what I think: I think that abuse sets off neuro-chemical responses that mimic the same reactions as in people who have narcotic or chemical dependencies. It makes your brain and emotions numb, in other words. And that's what you come to expect. When you get away from an abusive relationship, it's really nice at first until the withdrawals set in. You get so accustomed and habituated towards so much drama and noise in life that the quietude becomes overwhelming. You also feel lonely and think that at least with a bf, no matter how unhealthy or abusive, at least you were WITH someone. And you end up either back in the same or in a similar relationship with another person because you like the "high" you get from it.

You aren't really out of love. You're just BORED. You need the drama and excitement--well, you don't NEED it, but your brain thinks you do. Force yourself to slow down and enjoy the person you're with for as long as you care to be in an exclusive relationship with him.

My wife and I got together after she'd gotten hooked into a similar relationship with a total jerk. She was an emotionally immature and fragile person to begin with, so this guy REALLY messed her up. All I did was plant the suggestions that she COULD get away from him. After she dumped him, the first thing I did was either keep her isolated to myself or I kept tabs on her just enough to know she was hanging out with friends she could trust. Oddly enough, this was not unlike what her bf did, but she needed time to reset and learn to be "herself" again. If you could see her back then and see her now, you wouldn't know she's the same person. She's one of only two Certified Bankruptcy Assistants in the state of Mississippi (at least as far as I'm aware, there are none) and does the work of three paralegals at her office. She's the newest staff member at her office but the only one who has had consistent raises and makes more than her older and more-exerienced co-worker. She's just that good. The girl I met 11 years ago was fearful and, well, cowardly. Now she's aggressive, actively takes charge, and she'll even show ME a thing or two if I ever act like I can boss her around.

It took a lot of time to get that way, but she's the person SHE wants to be, not who I or anyone else tells her to be. And I think women who spend a lot of time in abusive relationships forget who they really are or who they want to be.

I wish I could take all the credit, but I have to also add that she spend a number of years in counseling in order put it behind her, and there are still echoes of that brief time that trouble her. But if you're determined enough, you can make this relationship work in spite of your boredom with it or the ghosts of bf's past. Something my wife found beneficial was the "empty chair" technique. You may not be in a position to confront your exes with their abuse, but you can in an imaginary way put them in an empty chair and just blow off steam at them. If you can get your current bf to cooperate, ask him to sit in that place. The only rule pertaining to him is he is not allowed to say a single word. This may help you in getting some sense of release from those things that are holding you down and standing in your emotional path with your bf. Also tell him not to bring up those things unless you start talking about it first. It should be interesting to see whether this enhances your relationship with your bf.

Another thing: It could be your and your bf don't play together enough. It's rare for my wife and I to do this, but every now and then we'll make up some silly reason to fight. We really get into it to, but sooner or later one of us will start laughing because what we fight about is so absurd. Prime example in my own experience: My wife woke me up when I was in the middle of truly awful nightmare. I won't go into details, but let's just say that she picked a fight with me (in the dream) over a piece of cheese. Well, I was embarrassed about it when she woke me up, so I simply told her I wasn't ready to talk about it because, even though it was a silly fight, it really was emotionally intense in the dream. Later on I told her about it and we had some good laughs. So whenever we argue about something silly, I bring up the cheese incident. If you really need drama in your life, that's the way to do it!! !

That's all very true.
I am trying to work through my issues with a therapist. I think it is getting better - but I think I always expect too much, too soon.
I think I just have to accept it's gonig to take time to heal from these past things.

I get a really strong impression that asking him to start "standing up" to you again is a recipe for disaster.

My gut tells me that he didn't stop standing up to you because he didn't want to seem like the bad guy. Based on what you've said about your past behavior, it seems more likely to me that he did it because he realized that standing up to you only pushed you further in the direction of doing something dangerous. As in, being *really* verbally abusive, destroying or threatening to destroy property, threatening to harm yourself, resorting to physical violence, etc. And not only that, but standing up probably only seemed to him that it prolonged the inevitable outcome, which was that you ultimately did whatever you wanted to do anyway.

What I'd say he's figured out is that if you're just going to do what you're going to do, regardless of what he says or does, then he may as well just quit prolonging the argument by standing up for himself because there's no real point in it -- other than trying to salvage a few shreds of his own self-esteem, that is. So, at this point, you say and do whatever you want and he doesn't stand up because he's **afraid** of what you might do if he continues to push back.

And the thing is, he probably *does* understand why you do the things you do, and he probably does love you, and he probably does worry about what might happen if he's not there to catch you when you fall down, so rather than "being strong" by standing up to you and making a point that he doesn't like being treated the way you're treating him.. He's found a way to rationalize that it's OK to "be strong" by taking it...and taking it...and taking it...and his strength in those moments comes from telling himself that taking your abuse makes him a good person because NOT MANY OTHER PEOPLE WOULD DO THAT for another human being.

If any of that sounds like it *could* be right, then what you have to realize is that asking him to start standing up again is only going to put the both of you back on the dangerous path you were on before...the one he veered away from because you got so out of control at some point that you truly scared him, or because he just couldn't take it anymore. I mean, do you *really* think that If you get mad and go off, and he stands up to it once again, that you're going to stop...remember that you *asked* him to stand up to you...and then switch gears from rage to respect, just all of a sudden?

In reality....it's not likely, right?

What I think is more likely is that the two of you will argue, then you'll go off like you've done in the past, then he'll stand up to you, and then you'll come right back at him with both barrels -- just like ol' times. And he's gonna be left standing there like...WTF?...she *wanted* me to stand up to her!...what's going on here?!?

And then he's going to get mad...and he's going to be confused...and the whole situation's going to be like a big can of gasoline just waiting for one of you to strike the match.

And if you continue on that way, one of you WILL eventually end up being physically harmed. Bank on it.

Here's what you need to understand... The feeling that you don't deserve such a great guy is just you trying to communicate to yourself that you *know* you're being abusive to a good person who loves you, and so this urge to have him fire back at you is nothing more than your own selfish desire to be able to feel better about being abusive...because if he fires back, then *you* won't have to feel so bad about being abusive.

It's like kicking and taunting a dog until it growls at you, just so you can feel better about continuing to kick it and taunt it because...ya know...it's growling at you.

If you think he deserves that, then go ahead and ask him growl so you can kick him some more.

If not...maybe you should just try to stop kicking him.

I'm not kicking him at all - I rarely snap at him specifically, I did once in a really bad way and i'll never do it again. I learned my lesson, because he just backed off and walked away - but that was still standing up to me, as he reacted and didn't just say 'it's okay.'

Things are much better when he stands up to me - we didn't argue hardly at all.
And 'standing up to me' isn't the same as threatening or anything like that.
It just means putting his view across instead of being a doormat.

You're right -- but that doesn't mean he should have to control you, either. It just means you should work on controlling yourself so that he doesn't feel like he *needs* to tip-toe anymore.



Was he around then?



Why would he know that? Could it be on account of having seen you endanger yourself?



Which, again, points to a mindset that putting up with abuse is another way of "being strong."



Do you think about how he's felt in other situations without him *specifically telling you* how he felt, or does someone always have to point it out?



Ok, so there's all that, yet......



....so how did all these things happen in the past when you "rarely snap at him," and if you've only done it "once in a really bad way?"

Can you see how this statement might not add up to an outside observer? Can you see how another person might look at the sum total of what you've said here and come to the conclusion that you've got all the pieces you need to figure out what's *actually* happened in your relationship in the past, but that you've never really put the pieces together to see how they may have brought him to "tip toe" around you today?



Which is to say that things are better when he keeps you under control, and that when he stops, you begin to go out of control again.. Which effectively means you're leaving it TO HIM to keep you under control, instead of putting yourself in charge of your own self-control.

Do you think having to be someone else's "self-control" might get a little tiresome after a while?

The simple fact that he mentioned how difficult it is to tip-toe around you when you're endangering yourself seems to me a clear indication that he's figured out that bringing you back under control isn't always an option, and that sometimes it just makes things worse, so there are times when all he can do is sit back and worry himself sick that you don't hurt yourself when you lose control.

Look...if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but logic is my thing, and all the puzzle pieces are lining up a bit too perfectly here for me to believe I'm all that far off the mark. Frankly, I find it more likely -- based strictly on what *you've* said, mind you -- that you're not being completely honest with yourself about just how badly you've treated him at times in the past.

But, again...if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I'll hush.

I know I treat him badly. Which is my original point - he's far, FAR too good for me. He should definitely leave me and be with a girl who appreciates how lovely and sweet he is.

Some things in previous posts may be confusing and skewed from the truth, but I was getting more and more upset with myself and the situation so I might have disorted things a little? I don't know.

I'm just a little confused and emotionally-fucked at the minute. I may come back to this is the morning after i've cried myself out and slept.
Maybe I can make more sense then.

Sorry.

What you said first was that you thought you were falling out of love with him.

Now you're saying HE should leave YOU because you because he doesn't deserve to be treated the way you're treating him -- and you even go so far as to throw in the idea of some other loverly girl he might end up with. Even thinking about him with another girl -- and being happier than when he was with you -- has to be painful.

Don't mistake it for altruism, though -- it's not. It's masochism. Which is to say...you're looking for punishment right now. You want him to hurt you as much as possible so that you won't have to feel so bad about what you've done.

Can you see that?



How many people do you know who become *more* able to sugarcoat as they become more and more upset? I don't know any.. Indeed, most people I know -- including myself -- are exactly the opposite.

So...are you sure you weren't actually sliding closer and closer *toward* the truth as you got more and more upset?



Go. Cry. Sleep. But don't come back with the intention of making more sense, because there's a really good chance that making more sense just means you'll have rationalized a lot of irrational behavior to make yourself feel better.

In the long run, that's not going to help.

Look...if you want punishment -- and you do -- OWN all the bad things you've done. Don't minimize and rationalize them until they don't seem like such a big deal anymore...live with them for a while! Living with things like that will make you want to change, and when you change, you'll eventually find the strength to go back and forgive "the old you" for all the things she did.

Last edited by cmjust0 on 01 Dec 2010, 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Do you think he'll stay with me?

I still need him.