Bottom Line for learning about relationships

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Look, everyone could sit on this forum and talk all day and all night about relationships and how they work, but the bottom line is, you aren't going to meet women unless you go out and find them. Much in the same way as driving a car or using a computer, you learn by doing, and you learn by making lots of mistakes. If you don't understand the mistakes you make, you will never learn from them. Making mistakes isn't a bad thing; in fact, not making mistakes is a horrible thing. No matter what HopeGrows says, dating is a two way street, and both parties are equally responsible, whether they realize it or not. Even when one person is pressing the issue too much, it all comes down to a lack of communication at the end of the day, and it takes two people to communicate; one to send, and one to receive. It's not about fault, and the sooner you realize this the better. There are two sides to every story, and until you understand both, you will understand neither. Even the pathetic loser who stalks women has a point of view, and if you don't understand why he does that, how are you ever going to avoid guys like him in the future?

You have to start somewhere. What things do you like? Where do you like to go? Do people of the opposite sex hang out there? I can tell you with a level of certainty that the best places to meet people are at school and at work. The reason for this is simple: Meeting people isn't the whole point of being there. Going to a bar looking for love will disappoint you, mainly because everyone is looking for the same thing, and when you try too hard, you fail. Think of every person you've ever met and liked. Were you trying to meet that person? Or did it just happen? Relationships are no different than friendships in that sense. People are so desperate to meet a boyfriend or a girlfriend, mainly for social status, and then they wonder why they fail miserably. What is it that you want in a relationship, if you do in fact want one? This is a very tough and unforgiving question, and the answers you give yourself might not make you particularly happy, if in fact you are honest with yourself.

I'm going to be very honest with myself right now, and I probably won't be very happy with what I come up with. For some reason, I find myself attracted to girls I know are insecure and needy, and not the girls I claim to have a thing for (happy, relaxed girls). Why is that? There are a couple reasons I can come up with. First of all, I see every person as a potential project, and if she is already happy and relaxed, then what do I need to talk to her for? Does this mean that I'm trying to make all of the girls of the world cooler (read: more like what I want them to be)? Probably. Second of all, I want to have someone that I feel superior to, whether I like to admit it or not. Everyone has this to some degree, but I suppose it's worse than it should be as far as I'm concerned. Third of all, I know that insecure girls are more touchy-feely than other girls that aren't so insecure. However, I've had girls do that kind of thing, and once that happens, I'm thinking "Oh crap. This wasn't supposed to happen. Run for the hills!" and I get out of there. Lastly, I know that I do in fact want to help people, so part of the reason I am initially attracted to girls like that is because I know they need support.

Now, I know full well that a relationship with girls like that will not last, because it's just not who I am, and I am not what they need, which is why I don't approach them. At the same time, I end up not always talking to the ones I know I will like. Now, a big reason for this is because I don't want a relationship, so maybe it's my subconscious trying to prove to me that I in fact will be alone forever, and so I play games with myself just to support my foregone conclusion that a relationship won't work out in the end. Or maybe it's something else. In any case, if I were to start a relationship, I need to get all of this cleared up, and until I do, it will never work out.

Now, you can say I'm a bad person all you want for writing this, but we are all bad people to some extent. It's just that some people are so blinded by their own piety that they forget how much they have to work on. The best way to understand anything is to take a holistic, comprehensive approach instead of focusing on one little thing to the point that everything else gets blocked out. So until you know what it is that you want, how can you ever reach your goal? Now, go put yourself out there, face your fears, and let's do this thing! Take a friend for moral support. It's better that way, but not totally necessary.

What on earth are you talking about?

Sometimes, people cheat and sometimes it has nothing to do with the other person.

There is a sort of girl that I call the "waif" and I find them attractive too.
They bring out the protective side in a man.
They make you want to put your arms around them and say "There, there. I will make it alright. I will protect you and make it better".

A real world example is the actress Mia Farrow. She has been the lost little waif all her life and never got over it.
So she married the "male waif" Woody Allen. How did that work out?

The fact is that they are both in their 60's and still neurotic as hell.

@Mindslave - Do you really feel you can't illustrate your point without mentioning others in a negative way? I'm not very active here, would you care to point where did HopeGrows said relationships are a one way street?

And why so defensive? Why care so much what others think? Do you need to justify your own shortcomings with the belief that "everybody is as bad as you"?

Defensive on what? What I said about HopeGrows is simply that because she is a NT, she thinks she can give her "factual opinion" to everyone here. One post I saw she actually wrote "Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but..." But...my opinion is correct and yours is not. Getting up on her feminist high horse is very annoying. I can't remember the last time she wrote anything critical of women and how they act. There are two sides to every story, and even the guy that supposedly cheats for no reason has a reason. If you think there is no difference between you and the person cheating on you, chances are you are lying to yourself. Doesn't mean you are a cheater by association, but to think you are so much above the other person is ridiculous, as long as you decided to date them. My main point is that if you make a point of understanding both sides, then understanding your own point of view is much easier to do. Going out and finding people to talk to makes practice a lot easier as well. Making mistakes isn't a bad thing. You are going to hurt people along the way, and if you are afraid of that, you will just end up hurting people even more. Think of the kind of person who is too cowardly to break up with so and so because he/she doesn't want to hurt his/her partner's feelings... so they string it along, and it hurts them a lot more in the end. Being afraid of failure is a recipe for failure.

If you don't like her posts you're free to ignore them or debate them right there in the thread. Why bring her name up here without even posting any links to the offending posts? Why not try to resolve the issue directly with her?

I spoke "against women" several times here and I'm a firm believer that except for extreme cases, both sides are responsible for the problems in their relationship. I can provide links to prove that. But I see no reason to launch in personal attacks to give weight to my point. People will indeed make mistakes and learn from them or just decide it's everybody else's fault for rejecting them. But being aware of how one's actions affect others is a good thing and improves one's chances of getting along with people.

Isn't this the way most people feel, even if they're wrong? Don't you basically say the same thing?

This thread has gone further downhill since I last looked. My finger is hovering over the lock button. Anyone think this thread should continue?

Nah, it's kind of turning into another NT-bashing/personal attack thread.

The idea itself could be an interesting debate (although I disagree with the statement 'both parties are equally responsible, whether they realize it or not'. It's far too simplistic)