The 'eye contact' issue

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I see some people have brought this up again. I feel like, while I understand the effect and most people do here, I still may or may not really understand it from the other side or what the reaction really means. I remember several years back being in a local AS group and when we mentioned for instance lack of eye contact he said that women take it as a 'really bad' sign.

What I would typically take away from it is that it shows that a guy has either had a hard life or that he has problems but the net effect really is that he likely wouldn't be suitable just because he's not meeting something of a physical/neurological integrity test, ie not so much intended eugenics as much as being with someone who energizes you is a needs driven thing and she may get the impression that she's talking to a guy who finds her energy a bit dysphoric.

What I'm trying to figure out, is there really more than that? When I hear people say 'really bad' I start wondering if they're implying something Norman Bates-like. With that in mind, if its so rare, wouldn't that say that there's even a great rift between people with AS vs. NT's with low self-esteem? For it to be alarming would mean that it needs to be something almost exclusive to either us, the neurologically ill, or the mentally ill in general. I'm pretty certain for most of us its something that's independent of self-esteem, like I've mentioned before or someone else did - when someone emotionally glows at you hard you feel like you're staring at the sun, like the circuits in your head are popping, shorting out, etc.. Having a great deal of confidence can of course help, no doubt a lot of this is emergency social processing frying the circuits, but I still get the impression that confidence would take it perhaps half way, maybe 60 or 70% of the way but that it would likely be there regardless.

My curiosity is this - is there a way around the end result or a way of communicating something that jams people's normal reaction to it? Clearly most people can improve it a little and the effort is worthwhile but, the likelihood of them completely overcoming it, particularly when you have nonverbal or very quick verbal in-passing moments, seems a bit unrealistic. I mean perhaps someone will come up with a computer program or binaural effect that simulates the exact same panic in low doses and gradually helps build brain circuitry to handle things of this nature but until then I think the best thing we can do is figure out the specifics of what not making eye contact means. Just lack of confidence? Neurological deficiency? Does it often or necessarily mean something worse or even something altogether different?

I think the general concensus is that if a person doesn't look you in the eye, they "must have something to hide".

Since that "something" is unknown, a person is free to make up anything to fill in the blank.

If I meet someone for the first time, I try to make a quick glance but generally avoid eye contact if I can.

I agree with the above comment--they think you are hiding something. The assumption is that the thing you are hiding is something bad, otherwise you wouldn't have to hide it.

Glad to know this, mainly because - having no known that - I was projecting my own reasons onto and making more of it than what it is perhaps.

What sucks about that, it sounds like it would be next to impossible to negotiate out once the damage is done - ie. it would be one thing if they just got the impression that you were lacking in personality and social skills, you can correct that. However if they think your hiding something there's very little likelihood that social skills, glib, or guile could correct the problem, even once they get to know you better the damage is still done .

Fortunately I'm decent in situations where I'm being formally introduced and when I'm having an actual conversation, but people who see me in passing or don't know me I have a great deal of difficulty making eye contact with - partly because more often than not you start a fight if you do that anyway.

For years I have never liked making eye contact with others. I never thought about it. Then someone I know told me that I have a probable case of AS. The fact is I have always viewed eye contact as a challenge. When people make eye contact I always assumed that they were either
1. Challenging me. Accusing me. Or getting ready to fight me.
2. At times when women make a great deal of eye contact with me, I assumed they may want to have sex with me.
I have always viewed eye contact as either a "fight or screw" reaction. Concurrently, I only make extended eye contact with people if I want to fight them, challenge them, or screw them.
It was only recently, I found out they see eye contact as "truthfulness". NTs should not be surprised that they are so often screwed by their financial advisors, business partners, salesmen etc.

Hahah, funny and at somewhat true on all accounts.

I think what you'll also find - a lot of our lives we spend in diplomacy, making nice with people we generally wouldn't like anyway. I can do that ok socially in 'words' but, I've had times where for example my friends and I would be at a bar, they'd go over and talk to the group, one of their friends may not particularly be friendly but would be even more cold on account of my not making eye contact with her (ie. she needs every guy to give her attention and justify her existence, I simply had nothing to say to her and I won't look at someone I don't know unless I have some kind of conversation to bring up).

I've also had moments quite the opposite where recently for example, I was out of town getting lunch at a Mexican restaurant. It was a work break, I was mentally fatigued from looking at numbers all day. When I walked in, the hostess was about 20 feet away and did the slow waltz, a very deliberate and specific kind of eye contact, my first impression is "I don't know this girl for anything, she doesn't seem like my type" but the biggest thing was - at that point - I just flat out didn't want to be bothered, in the past when women have been very specifically nonverbal with me and I do what I usually do - they feel scorned and act accordingly. Not good. So, I looked away, she got pissed, and was ice cold taking me to the table. Honestly I feel bad for her, but, she also put me on the spot. I don't know what the ratio is - naivety on her side, perhaps the notion that as a guy society would expect me never to do that or have a moment where I don't want to be bothered? It was painful both ways regardless and its far from the first time that its happened.

Good point. I have learned that if I see a woman giving me a lot of extended eye contact at a club. I blow her off, even if she is attractive. She is upset, but then if I wait a few weeks, I can run into her again and she will approach me to hook up. I have manipulated her into a weaker tactical position and now she is desperate to meet me. When I was younger, I was pleasant to women who seemed interested. I found out that is boring. Now, I treat them like they don't matter. They eat it up. I reverse their game and I have the tactical advantage. I act like I'm doing them a favor talking to them.
As they say, Hahaha.

My main drag where it got to me was when I worked at a restaurant for about seven years as a busser through college. New hostesses and waitresses were starting every few weeks, very attractive usually and from their actions it seemed like they had no record or memory of someone ever being disinterested, by far let alone someone having a different motif of neurology that forces them down different paths. My initial result was what you got, they were scorned. However, they stayed pissed at me, it would usually take a month or two for them to even get back to luke-warm. In that case it wasn't game, and I'd have to add that when I'm under neurological stress I start showing signs that make people think that I'm ret*d. That could have been the real fix, ie. they stayed around long enough to see that I had something wrong neurologically - so it seemed like they were angry for being scorned then on top of that angry that I faked them out and that they put themselves on the line for someone with mental problems who stutters (which again - I'm find under most circumstances, that happens though when I'm absolutely drained, I think a good way to put it is that was a very bad choice of work, I believed for some reason that through sheer effort I could beat my 'disability' just by brute force and beating it out of myself - I'm seeing how laughable all of that was now).

I find that whether I have AS or not, that I simply view NTs as mentally defective. There is an advantage to this. I may have AS or I may just be antisocial. I refuse to consider the "normal" people as normal. I approach everyone including hot NT women as if they are mental defectives. They are the problem, not me. They belong in the nut house. I our narcissistic, drug prone society, quite a lot of these NT women have loads of problems. Many of these problems are their own fault. This can give us an advantage. An AS who is s resistant to emotionalism can ave advantage over screwed up NTs. I use their problems against them just as they would do to me. Treat hot women as if they are nuts. Treat NTs like they are freaks. By the way, I even treat cops like they are mental defectives. I talked my way out of DUI by being manipulative. I exploited the age difference between two cops. I got the older cop to think the aggressive younger cop was a nut.
You are normal, the NTs are nuts. It really gives you the advantage. Learn to turn your enemies against each other. It works with women and cops.

And see... I don't work like that. I have no inferiority complex about my condition either but, I also tend to view this as a world of equals where just by a roll of the dice my consciousness could have been seated in anyone else. Regarding the ability to treat the defective like their defective and manipulate - I simply want nothing to do with people who I can't trust, sure I'm more than willing to iron out communication that simply isn't working if that's the only problem but aside from that, someone I'd need to literally manipulate rather than put my best foot forward is someone I simply don't want in my life. No matter what little bit I'd get out of them, the wreckage, liability, and babysitting I'd have on my hands simply isn't worth it. I tend to be an altruist, prefer not to treat anyone in ways that I don't wish to be treated, and, if they treat me in ways that are drastically out of line I'm happy to deal with them accordingly by either blocking them from my life or putting them in their place if need be. Regardless though I prefer to be peacable and really don't want much to do with people in my private life unless they're fundamentally of a similar mind. Even if I could manipulate people, from what I've experienced long ago it gives me no glee - rather I find it deeply depressing that this is the type of world that I live in.

The problem that I have with eye contact is that once it is made, usually one or the other person is expected to say something (I never know which one). I find social conversation difficult at best and when it comes out of the blue and with a stranger, it is all but impossible. Therefore, unless I am prepared to say something I try to avoid eye contact.

Techstepgener8tion, I see you are taking the moral high road. I applaud that. I am now taking the immoral low road, because I find NTs amusing. I like to toy with them. Like cat toys with a mouse. You are probably doing the right thing. I don't want to let them off so easily.

I don't think that I am better than them. I deal with all so called Normal people as if they are mental defectives. I know from watching other people who show any sign of the slightest social awkwardness, that "normals" perceive it as a weakness and will move on you like vultures.. When dealing with hot women, aggressive men, or cops I have learned that weakness invites attack or loss. Treat them like they are beneath you. Humans, especially the so called Normals, like being dominated.
Most f the time, I am simply dismissive of everyone. I rarely bother to get dominant unless there is an advantage. It s not that I am better, I just view the rest of "society" as the enemy. Take away their easy life and plentiful food and most of them will return to eating each others children.
Freidrich the Great said, "The better I know mankind, the more I like my dog."
I'm sure Freddy was an ass@@@le in his day, but he got that right.