Alpha males: did the ancient Greeks have the right idea?

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trappedinhell
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15 May 2011, 6:44 pm

I've been thinking a lot about the concept of being an alpha male. I briefly had a girlfriend who wanted that - she would do anything as long as I acted like I didn't care. All the evidence is that if you learn a few simple rules the girls fall at your feet (don't know how it works for long term relationships but it definitely works for one night stands). But it seems so fake. Why should I pretend that I don't care if a girl likes me? You bet I care! And you bet I have needs and weaknesses - I'm human!

So I wonder... did the ancient Greeks have the right idea?

In ancient Greek society, the three roles we assign to dating were split up:
1. For love you had friends.
2. For sex you had prostitutes (and marriage too, but that wasn't its purpose)
3. For family life you have marriage.

Isn't that a more sensible approach? If you have to be fake to get a girl then you can't call it real love. Desire, sure, but soul mate love? That would be friendship, that's different.

What do you think?



auntblabby
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15 May 2011, 7:04 pm

but sex with sexy people you love and who love you, would still be the best situation.



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15 May 2011, 8:30 pm

trappedinhell wrote:
I've been thinking a lot about the concept of being an alpha male. I briefly had a girlfriend who wanted that - she would do anything as long as I acted like I didn't care. All the evidence is that if you learn a few simple rules the girls fall at your feet (don't know how it works for long term relationships but it definitely works for one night stands). But it seems so fake. Why should I pretend that I don't care if a girl likes me? You bet I care! And you bet I have needs and weaknesses - I'm human!

So I wonder... did the ancient Greeks have the right idea?

In ancient Greek society, the three roles we assign to dating were split up:
1. For love you had friends.
2. For sex you had prostitutes (and marriage too, but that wasn't its purpose)
3. For family life you have marriage.

Isn't that a more sensible approach? If you have to be fake to get a girl then you can't call it real love. Desire, sure, but soul mate love? That would be friendship, that's different.

What do you think?


No one is stopping you from making love to you guy friends....except maybe your guy friends.

I think you just need to find that happy medium between nice and needy and aloof and indifferent.



techstepgenr8tion
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15 May 2011, 8:58 pm

I think the best I can call a happy medium is this - be an informed shopper, know yourself, and let women know that you know yourself and that you're an informed shopper. If they think you're needy they likely get that feeling that you're interested in them simply because they're female, they know that's not nearly enough. If you're able to get them to understand that - in redirecting and deciding to talk to them - you actually have some semblance of knowing what you're doing or why you're doing it past 'She's hot' and more personal or in depth, like a personality click where she feels like its a very observant thing, ie. you're seeing something most people don't inherently see, that's where I'd start.

The whole point is don't be disingenuous. If you want the right person, figure out who that is or could be. If you see certain traits, probe, in a way like you're saying without words "You're style caught my interest and I'm curious to find out a bit more on who you are". Certain things that are said or done at the right times will make that clear, and, to really firm up a good story book essence to the whole mix, make sure that you keep the sanctity of serendipity by only being literal or blunt when you have to. Its not something she just needs, most often even we as guys we also need a sense of 'this was meant to be'. Otherwise your motivational core has no way of wrapping itself around the idea of dedicating yourself to them or separating them from the thousands of bits of meaningless eye candy that pass by on an every day basis (not meaningless as human beings obviously but simply not your style, not your type, or could not understand you).

The psychology games you may have to play with yourself in order to understand you're instincts and then find those who might be right for you and follow up on it in a way where you're playing it as smart as possible, will get deep. IMO its worth the exploration, if it doesn't end up with you having a partner it at least ends up with you having a more profound sense of life. All the same though, when you talk to women, feel free to let 99 out of 100 go because - 99 out of 100 won't be right, of that 1%, with 7 out of 10 of them it will either be the wrong place at the wrong time, they won't get a chance to 'see' you based on the logistics of the situation in which you graze past each other, or they may not be single, or you may both be misjudging each other on sight, its hard out there - don't forget it.


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trappedinhell
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16 May 2011, 2:05 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
If they think you're needy they likely get that feeling that you're interested in them simply because they're female, they know that's not nearly enough.


It is for me. :) I spent 19 years with a woman i had nothing in common with, and would still be happily there is it was not for the fact that she wanted more of a connection. I hated that my presence was making her unhappy.

As you say, women want more. They want more connection, and as an aspy I really do feel like I'm on another planet. I would love to think there are women out there who are lonely and just want a decent guy, but I think women who say that don't mean it. They really want a guy who ticks all their boxes. They can afford to be more picky.



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16 May 2011, 5:33 am

I don't think women really want men who tick all the boxes. They just have to tick the main ones. An emotional connection is often on the list.


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ValentineWiggin
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16 May 2011, 5:56 am

trappedinhell wrote:
I would love to think there are women out there who are lonely and just want a decent guy, but I think women who say that don't mean it.

I love being called disingenuous on the interwebz. :roll:
~waits to hear man opine about women being silly for thinking they know what they want~
trappedinhell wrote:
They can afford to be more picky.

Oh yeah? How's that?
~waits to hear man imply the average woman has men coming at her left and right every time she steps outside~




It's telling in your OP that there's ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION OF ROMANTIC LOVE.



wefunction
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16 May 2011, 8:56 am

I'm getting the feeling from ValetineWiggin's comments that she's been on the internet before and is already wise to straight male shenanigans. If all goes as typical, somebody will call her a man-hater before too long and refer to feminism as some demonic philosophy. Welcome to the club, VW. We've got jackets. :D



trappedinhell
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16 May 2011, 1:28 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
trappedinhell wrote:
I would love to think there are women out there who are lonely and just want a decent guy, but I think women who say that don't mean it.

I love being called disingenuous on the interwebz.

I apologise. I should not have implied insincerity. I was simply inferring from statistics.

ValentineWiggin wrote:
trappedinhell wrote:
They can afford to be more picky.

Oh yeah? How's that?

Men slightly outnumber women on dating sites (not massively, but slightly). Women receive far more offers than men - sometimes by a factor of ten or more. (source for stats). So there will be some men who, no matter what they do, cannot get any dates, whereas women are in the happy position of being able to choose.

This is especially true for male nerds: here we have men who are decent (that is they treat women with respect) yet no woman wants them - at least not enough to ask them out.

Studies show that women are more critical of appearances: they rate 80% of men as "below average." (source)

There are many other statistics of this nature, but you get the drift. Women can afford to be more picky than men.

ValentineWiggin wrote:
It's telling in your OP that there's ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION OF ROMANTIC LOVE.

That's because it is a secondary effect, not a primary cause. People "fall in love" with people who can provide their emotional, sexual and practical needs, and fall out of love once those needs are no longer met.

Incidentally, I am an old fashioned romantic, in the original literary meaning of the word, but nobody really believes in that kind of romance any more.



ValentineWiggin
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17 May 2011, 6:11 am

trappedinhell wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
trappedinhell wrote:
I would love to think there are women out there who are lonely and just want a decent guy, but I think women who say that don't mean it.

I love being called disingenuous on the interwebz.

I apologise. I should not have implied insincerity. I was simply inferring from statistics.

There are "statistics" that say there are no lonely women who just want a decent guy?
Care to cite them?

trappedinhell wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
trappedinhell wrote:
They can afford to be more picky.

Oh yeah? How's that?

Men slightly outnumber women on dating sites (not massively, but slightly).

What do dating sites have to do with anything? You do realize that for every single man there is a single woman?

trappedinhell wrote:
Women receive far more offers than men - sometimes by a factor of ten or more.

That's funny. I'm on 4 dating sites and go months without a single message. It truly does get me off to be told by a man what it's like to be a woman in the dating world. But then, not only do I not presume to speak for the experience of the OPPOSITE sex, I don't even presume to speak for the experience of my OWN sex.

trappedinhell wrote:

I counted over twenty methodological and logical errors on that page alone- the site name is telling.
I can only assume you listed it as a joke.

trappedinhell wrote:
So there will be some men who, no matter what they do, cannot get any dates, whereas women are in the happy position of being able to choose.

Wow, so I have men pursuing me? Why haven't they contacted me?
Again, stop telling this woman, and women in general, what their dating experiences and success are. It's laughable.

trappedinhell wrote:
This is especially true for male nerds: here we have men who are decent (that is they treat women with respect) yet no woman wants them - at least not enough to ask them out.

Then, logically, we might infer there is something about them turning women off.
"Bob has brown hair."
"Bob can't get a date."
"Therefore, women don't like men with brown hair."
You really do lack some basic reasoning capabilities.

trappedinhell wrote:
Studies show that women are more critical of appearances: they rate 80% of men as "below average." (source)

If a man's looks are even moderately or highly-important to women in finding a partner, this is relevant. Otherwise, not at all.

trappedinhell wrote:
There are many other statistics of this nature, but you get the drift.

Yeah. You speak for the experiences of an entire sex of people based on your own presumptions, an opinion piece based on methodology that could very well serve as an example for sociology undergrads on how NOT to conduct research and draw conclusions, and cherry-picked statistics taken from a demographically-isolated website which are only relevant to the actual topic when assigned a specific, arbitrary degree of impact on the variable in question. I "get" it very well.

trappedinhell wrote:
Women can afford to be more picky than men

For every single man, there is a single woman, statistically slightly more than one.
Keep chanting that women have it easier to a forum full of women, many of them unhappily-single,
and see what happens.

trappedinhell wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
It's telling in your OP that there's ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION OF ROMANTIC LOVE.

That's because it is a secondary effect, not a primary cause. People "fall in love" with people who can provide their emotional, sexual and practical needs, and fall out of love once those needs are no longer met.

Trying to be a failed amateur psychologist in addition to a failed amateur sociologist, eh?

trappedinhell wrote:
Incidentally, I am an old fashioned romantic, in the original literary meaning of the word, but nobody really believes in that kind of romance any more.

Oh, good. At least with this you're speaking for the ENTIRE 7 billion human beings on the planet, as opposed to just half of them on the basis of genitalia.



WorldsEdge
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19 May 2011, 11:41 pm

trappedinhell wrote:
I
So I wonder... did the ancient Greeks have the right idea?

In ancient Greek society, the three roles we assign to dating were split up:
1. For love you had friends.
2. For sex you had prostitutes (and marriage too, but that wasn't its purpose)
3. For family life you have marriage.



What source did you look at to conclude the above? It certainly wouldn't have applied to Sparta, since "family life" was pretty much unknown to them. Meals were taken in common, male children were separated from parents at a very young age and essentially thrown on the street. Those that survived a year or two that way would be accepted into military training, and spent most of the rest of their lives in barracks. This did break down eventually, but it also held up for quite a few centuries.

In Thebes they had a, well, curious, arrangement, where young recruits into their military were chosen, assigned or maybe mutually agreed to form a bond with an older soldier who taught them the ropes. And in a curious inversion of "don't ask, don't tell", learned a great deal more, if you catch my drift. BTW, this "Sacred Band of Thebes" was actually the first military force to truly hand Sparta its collective ass, pardon the pun, and probably had the best army of any Greek city-state for a decade or so. Until Alexander wiped them off the map, oh well.

And on and on, each city-state having its own way of doing things, some pretty close to what you describe, quite a few nowhere near it. Or that's what I took away from J.G. Bury, Will Durant, I.F. Stone, etc. Or are you meaning only Athens when you refer to Greece?

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Isn't that a more sensible approach? If you have to be fake to get a girl then you can't call it real love. Desire, sure, but soul mate love? That would be friendship, that's different.


In theory I don't have a problem with it, but I'd guess most prostitutes in ancient Greece were also slaves. Yes, there were a few courtesan types, but most had no say of any kind and doubtless lived out a horrible existence. I can't imagine they had much choice or say in what was done to them, certainly.


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22 May 2011, 1:01 am

trappedinhell wrote:
Why should I pretend that I don't care if a girl likes me?

Don't pretend. Learn how to actually not care. I can't make a girl like me, and I have almost no control over whether or not she does or doesn't like me, so why should I worry about it? If a girl doesn't like me, I'm pretty sure there about about 3.5 billion more on this planet. It's easier said than done, but it seems to get easier as I get older.

I focus on me liking me first. If I don't like me, it's unlikely any girl will like me. If I like me and I like my life, then any girl would just be a welcome addition. When I've not liked myself, and been dating, a girl would BECOME my life. That's a sure fire way to make sure she'll run for the hills.


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22 May 2011, 1:57 pm

I've been trying to figure out why I can't compose a proper reply to this post and I just figured it out.

trappedinhell wrote:
I've been thinking a lot about the concept of being an alpha male. I briefly had a girlfriend who wanted that - she would do anything as long as I acted like I didn't care.


I can stop you right there and say your girlfriend wanted you to be a negligent jerk, not an Alpha male. Alpha males don't act like they don't care. They care quite a bit. Alpha males are some of the most passionate and deep people I've met. Did your girlfriend say "Alpha male" or did you just slap that label on there?

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All the evidence is that if you learn a few simple rules the girls fall at your feet


What evidence? Okay... I assume you think the bad boys get all the chicks (read: one night stands) because they're go-grease-lightning cool and sh*t. Whatever's going on, that's probably not the kind of attention you want from someone, anyway.

Here is where you lost me:

Quote:
So I wonder... did the ancient Greeks have the right idea?

In ancient Greek society, the three roles we assign to dating were split up:
1. For love you had friends.
2. For sex you had prostitutes (and marriage too, but that wasn't its purpose)
3. For family life you have marriage.


What does this have to do with whether or not girls like you or not caring about whether or not they like you or being go-grease-lightning cool or being an Alpha male?!

If this is how you want to live, then by all means, live this way. I'm not interested in living this way but you're more than free to give it a go.

Quote:
Isn't that a more sensible approach?


No.

Quote:
If you have to be fake to get a girl then you can't call it real love.


What do you think is so wrong with you that you have to be fake? Women, since they are people, can sense dishonesty and will stay away from you. This is probably what's happening and instead of dealing with the real problem, you've constructed an elaborate way to blame our modern culture and hold up an ancient civilization as superior. Well, go ahead and have at your prostitutes while keeping a wife just for reproduction. Also, if you join the military, don't forget to have sex with your fellow male soldiers. They did that, too. Let us know how it goes.



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22 May 2011, 2:20 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
trappedinhell wrote:
This is especially true for male nerds: here we have men who are decent (that is they treat women with respect) yet no woman wants them - at least not enough to ask them out.

Then, logically, we might infer there is something about them turning women off.
"Bob has brown hair."
"Bob can't get a date."
"Therefore, women don't like men with brown hair."
You really do lack some basic reasoning capabilities.


Here's something a little more reasonable:
"Bob can't get a date"
"Bob has brown hair"
"However, Bob saw 3 different brown-haired men on dates whilst eating alone in a restaurant last weekend"
"Therefore, brown hair has nothing to do with it. Bob's just unlovable."

That's the basic formula. You can plug in any physical or mental trait you can come up with, and get the same conclusion. It's the conclusion I came to about myself. It makes no generalizations or assumptions about others, and places the blame for my situation on the one person to which it belongs: myself.