Salon article: "How to get chicks without being a dick&

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katzefrau
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29 Jun 2013, 7:31 pm

In all seriousness, I thought some of you guys might benefit from reading this, since it is a little better than a lot of the advice I have read people give each other (which is probably good-intentioned, for the most part, but not always great advice)

Not posting it to be a jerk. I think it really might help some people. However, I expect arguments, and I get worked up about things easily, so I am just going to post it and skedaddle.

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/25/how_to_ ... ng_a_dick/


Here is the entire text of the article incase something goes awry with that link:

Quote:
Is all pickup advice sexist? That’s what I found myself wondering after “pickup artist” Ken Hoinsky made headlines last week by raising more than $16,000 via a Kickstarter campaign to publish his book, “Above the Game: A Guide to Getting Awesome With Women.” Critics say Hoinsky’s idea of a pickup is actually predatory — for example, he advises men to “continue to try to escalate physically” with a woman until she responds by shouting “STOP” or “GET AWAY FROM ME.”

The controversy inspired Maria Bustillos at the Awl to write a defense of Hoinsky with a great big nod of sympathy to all the “shy fellows” out there. I disagree with her contention that Hoinsky’s advice is harmless — but we do agree on one thing: There is nothing wrong with wanting to attract women — whether it’s for a one-night stand or a long-term relationship. The problem arises when the advice is sexist, demeaning or hostile.

All of which raises the question of what reasonable, inoffensive advice on wooing women would look like. Clarisse Thorn, author of “Confessions of a Pickup Artist Chaser,” has put a great deal of thought into the question. “Ethics was a central question in my book,” she told me in an email. “ It’s a very complicated topic, but I think that ethical pickup artistry boils down to using ‘tactics’ that are mutual rather than adversarial.” There is plenty in the pickup artist, or PUA, community that is “ sleazy and misogynistic,” she says, but there are also self-help aspects that seem relatively harmless and legitimately therapeutic. “Some cognitive-behavioral therapists suggest that patients with social anxiety keep a log of successful social encounters in order to build up self-confidence — and PUAs sometimes do this by writing what they call ‘Field Reports,’” she says.

Thorn refrains from giving “concrete ‘tips,’” she says, “since any tactic can be used for harm or for good.” It’s possible, though, to give some clear pointers on how to avoid being a dick to women — and despite the nonsense about “nice guys finishing last,” that is a pretty strong attractant (at least to women who are confident and secure). With the help of Thorn and feminist activist and author Jaclyn Friedman — as well as wisdom gleaned from my own unfortunate run-ins with pickup artists – I’ve devised a list of basic principles for guys who want to pursue women without becoming a Hoinsky.

Women are people

I know, crazy, right? Women are people, and people are different. As Thorn wrote in a blog post on “ethical pickup artistry” a couple of years back, “Pickup artists often say ‘women are all X,’ ‘women love X,’ ‘women all respond to X,’ etc,” she writes. “Sometimes they are correct for the majority of women; sometimes they are correct for a minority of women; sometimes they’re wrong. The bottom line is this: Anything pickup artists say about women is not true for all women.”

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve looked at a beloved female friend and wondered at how very alien her wants and needs were to mine, and vice versa. I remember the look of horror that registered on a friend’s face when I told her that I had never seen “Love Actually.” It’s the same look I’d given her years back when she asked me whether performers had “real” sex in porn.

Friedman brilliantly adds, “If you’re looking for any formula that will work on all women, you’re doing it wrong, because you’re treating women as vending machines that will dispense sex if you put in the right input.” On that note, the headline above is tongue-in-cheek: Stop thinking about women as “chicks” you can “get” and, ironically, you might actually get some.

Pay attention to her

Part of treating a woman as an individual, rather than a mass-produced kitchen gadget for which you have the instruction manual, means paying attention to her. Thorn says pickup artistry becomes unethical when “you stop thinking about the other person’s experience,” she tells me. “The experience, the journey, and making sure your partner feels OK is just as important as ‘results.’”

Similarly, Friedman suggests — wait for it — listening to her. ”Listen more than you talk! Want to let a woman know you’re into her? Pay attention to what she’s saying and doing,” she writes in an email. “Respond genuinely. This may mean you have to pay attention to the fact that she doesn’t want to talk with you, or you’re making her uncomfortable! On the other hand, sometimes listening will have the added benefit of making her feel more comfortable around you, and it’s hard to feel sexy when you’re feeling afraid, annoyed or uncomfortable.”

She isn’t an enemy

Thorn says her chief complaint with the PUA community is that it often frames women as the enemy. “The way we frame our relationships helps us decide which tools to use: If you feel like your partners are enemies, then you are likely to use social tactics that hurt them,” says Thorn. “On the other hand, if your partner is also a friend, then you’ll be more careful.”

Gain real self-confidence

Much of the PUA canon focuses on feigning confidence — by taking up space and seeming unavailable. It’s true, confidence is wildly attractive — but instead of attempting to trick a woman into thinking that you’re a secure human being with a lot going for you, be one. This way everyone wins: You become happier with yourself and can show it off without being a false-advertiser. (And that’s one of the main problems I have with pickup artistry: Too often it involves trying to deceive women about who you really are. There’s no respect in that sort of sleight of hand.) This route may not be as fast as learning to lean against a bar like you own the place, but it will last much longer.

Be honest

“I would also say that, properly deployed, honesty can be quite charming,” says Friedman. “‘I’m sorry, I’m listening, I swear, it’s just your smile is very distracting.’ ‘I felt I should tell you that I’m not just interested in you for your brain.’ That sort of thing.” But that comes with an important caveat: Only do this after “you’ve actually engaged with and genuinely paid attention to her for a bit, and have reason to believe she’s feeling comfortable around you,” she says. “If you open with, ‘You’re gorgeous, do you want to go back to my place?’ you’re going to have very poor odds, because most women are going to just roll their eyes and try to lose you as soon as they can.”
Sex should be win-win

Scoring should never be one-sided. Both parties should feel like they’ve lucked out when they land in bed together. Therefore, seduction shouldn’t mean physically escalating à la Hoinsky until the woman either screams “STOP” or feels pressured into sex; she should want you as much as you want her — and if she doesn’t, back off. Good sex isn’t something you get from another person; it’s something you experience with them.



Fnord
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29 Jun 2013, 7:59 pm

Women are people ... Pay attention to her ... Gain real self-confidence ... Be honest ...

All common-sense behaviors. Women are not prizes to be won nor objects to be owned. Neither are men.

Be excellent to each other.


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Persevero
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29 Jun 2013, 8:02 pm

Not that I disagree with anything, but "gain real self-confidence" is a lot easier said than done.



Ann2011
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29 Jun 2013, 8:16 pm

katzefrau wrote:
“Ethics was a central question in my book,” she told me in an email. “ It’s a very complicated topic, but I think that ethical pickup artistry boils down to using ‘tactics’ that are mutual rather than adversarial.”

I think this is the key point. Once you view your potential partner as an adversary, a healthy relationship is gone.



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30 Jun 2013, 9:52 am

Ann2011 wrote:
katzefrau wrote:
“Ethics was a central question in my book,” she told me in an email. “ It’s a very complicated topic, but I think that ethical pickup artistry boils down to using ‘tactics’ that are mutual rather than adversarial.”
I think this is the key point. Once you view your potential partner as an adversary, a healthy relationship is gone.

When a man views a woman as an obstacle to his own sexual gratification, then he has pushed aside all respect for her as a person.


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individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
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galvatron
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30 Jun 2013, 11:31 am

So, would anyone like to explain to me the **** I'm supposed to gain "real self-confidence" when I've been rejected by every woman I've ever approached in my entire life?



Tyri0n
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30 Jun 2013, 11:41 am

galvatron wrote:
So, would anyone like to explain to me the **** I'm supposed to gain "real self-confidence" when I've been rejected by every woman I've ever approached in my entire life?


Do you have a job? Hard to develop real confidence for a man in today's sexist culture without having a good job.

Besides that, one thing I've thought about doing at some point is posting a Craigslist ad for a female coach -- an unemployed female psychology grad maybe -- to develop better body language and fashion habits. I kind of did this for a bit with an acting teacher--at least the body language and voice part -- but then I ended up hitting a depressive rut and also moving. She gave interesting tips like, for example, the way I said "S" was "too girly" and I held my shoulders "like a prisoner, not a boss."

That, and make sure you're fit. That is necessary but not sufficient, unfortunately.



ForeverAloneVirgin
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30 Jun 2013, 5:15 pm

galvatron wrote:
So, would anyone like to explain to me the **** I'm supposed to gain "real self-confidence" when I've been rejected by every woman I've ever approached in my entire life?


You can fake your confidence with body language. The real self confidence will come once you truley learn to accept yourself.
Also, why does it matter what a random woman thinks? Chances are it was nothing about you that set her off it was probably just you trying to hard, putting her on a pedestal, being a nice guy, not making physical contact (kino), or some awkward Aspie like thing.

And finally how many woman have you approached? Don't expect to get sex from every girl you talk to as that is unreasonable. Most PUAs would go out and approch a 1000 woman in a year, only have sex with 10 of them. I really don't think you approched that many. Also rejection is GOOD. It lets you know that you can move on and no longer talk to that girl. When rejected simply go an approch a new girl.



The_Illusive_Man
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30 Jun 2013, 5:26 pm

get a girl without being a dick? not possible women like bastards[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOwTF_i6zOc[/youtube] may be a comedy series but this is absolutely 100% true.

girls in my country all go out with the alcoholic, swearing, lazy, disrespectful douches that haven't matured since juniour high school

whereas truely nice girls are lucky if they get a girl when shes partied out, sick of dick heads, slept with every other male in a 50 mile radius and needs someone reliable to take care of them



ForeverAloneVirgin
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30 Jun 2013, 5:34 pm

The_Illusive_Man wrote:
get a girl without being a dick? not possible women like bastards may be a comedy series but this is absolutely 100% true.

girls in my country all go out with the alcoholic, swearing, lazy, disrespectful douches that haven't matured since juniour high school

whereas truely nice girls are lucky if they get a girl when shes partied out, sick of dick heads, slept with every other male in a 50 mile radius and needs someone reliable to take care of them


The problem is that many guys here cannot accept that. They go so far as saying that woman actually WANT nice guys. They don't realize their life long personality is obviously the cause of their Incel.

But yes you are true. Woman like guys that have sex with lots of woman because it shows that he is in demand and has high value. For one night stands the girl will know the sex will actually be good as oppossed to some awkward virgin. Nice guys also lack confidence and will try to supplicate (buying her drinks, flowers, dinners) which will never actually get you laid. Nice guys are also afriad of making physical contract with the woman and will almost appear asexual. You NEED to touch her as soon as possible from meeting her if you want to get her in bed later, read up on KINO.



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30 Jun 2013, 7:45 pm

ForeverAloneVirgin wrote:
The_Illusive_Man wrote:
get a girl without being a dick? not possible women like bastards may be a comedy series but this is absolutely 100% true.

girls in my country all go out with the alcoholic, swearing, lazy, disrespectful douches that haven't matured since juniour high school

whereas truely nice girls are lucky if they get a girl when shes partied out, sick of dick heads, slept with every other male in a 50 mile radius and needs someone reliable to take care of them


The problem is that many guys here cannot accept that. They go so far as saying that woman actually WANT nice guys. They don't realize their life long personality is obviously the cause of their Incel.

But yes you are true. Woman like guys that have sex with lots of woman because it shows that he is in demand and has high value. For one night stands the girl will know the sex will actually be good as oppossed to some awkward virgin. Nice guys also lack confidence and will try to supplicate (buying her drinks, flowers, dinners) which will never actually get you laid. Nice guys are also afriad of making physical contract with the woman and will almost appear asexual. You NEED to touch her as soon as possible from meeting her if you want to get her in bed later, read up on KINO.


1. You're self-evidently not the best person to advise on what women want, consider that you're a self-styled "forever alone virgin".

2. I'm guessing that the biggest problem of most guys here is not that they're too nice, but that their Asperger's makes them into complete social retards. You can be a lovely person, but if you can't convince others of that...


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30 Jun 2013, 8:39 pm

Persevero wrote:
Not that I disagree with anything, but "gain real self-confidence" is a lot easier said than done.


Its what I've always said. I tend to agree with advice as such given in this thread but the confidence thing is surely a made up concept that none can explain and is only shown after being wildly successful.



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30 Jun 2013, 9:56 pm

The thing about self-confidence is that it can't be dependent on one's success with women. If you base it on how many times you've been rejected by women then you'll probably not get very far. It's not easy nor is it supposed to be, my experience so far has been than when one just worries about being successful in what one wants to do and becoming more like the person one wants to be then self-confidence comes.


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