confessions of a former Nice Guy(tm)

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LKL
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hyperlexian
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12 Jan 2013, 7:57 am

I was a Nice Guy™ author wrote:
A few things happened to shift me out of this pattern. First, I moved to a new city and my life quickly filled with things to do. I was working, I was writing, I was meeting new people, I was playing music – things were hectic and I was happy. Second, I started reading feminist blogs, which helped me put words to a lot of the problems I had fitting into the gender role that I assumed I needed to play to be “successful”. Third, I figured out that the key to my happiness and contentment had little or nothing to do with whether or not I was romantically involved with someone – I had to learn to be happy on my own.

Part of this, I’m sure, was just part of a regular growing up process. However, more than a little of it was the result of me directly confronting some of the things I had come to believe in my younger days. I was able to put aside the monolithic ‘a woman’ and recognize that the problems I’d had in previous relationships weren’t because of “women”, they were because I had been involved with people who weren’t a good fit for me. There were tons of guys I didn’t fit with well, but I didn’t notice because I wasn’t trying to date them! And there wasn’t a “female behaviour” that I had once complained about for which I couldn’t find a perfect “male behaviour” analogue – I knew of guys who played mind games, I knew of guys who were superficial, I knew of guys who said they wanted X but kept ending up with Y – suddenly my complaints about “women” looked really stupid. The fault wasn’t “women” – the fault was people.


interesting stuff. i'd have to agree (bolded).


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rabbittss
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12 Jan 2013, 8:15 am

I get so sick of seeing that "Happy on my own" or "Happy with myself" stuff.. it's such a cop out.



hyperlexian
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12 Jan 2013, 8:19 am

erm, it actually isn't a cop out. you get the benefit of being happy whether you are in a relationship or not, so it is the absolute ultimate benefit that nobody can ever take away from you. it also makes you more appealing to potential partners, so there's that.


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MCalavera
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12 Jan 2013, 8:19 am

You may have a point.

For many people, they need others around them in order to be happy.

I think it's only an issue when such a person can't be happy and satisfied no matter what ... or when his happiness is too dependent on one particular person that it becomes too much burden and pressure on that person.



rabbittss
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12 Jan 2013, 8:53 am

hyperlexian wrote:
erm, it actually isn't a cop out. you get the benefit of being happy whether you are in a relationship or not, so it is the absolute ultimate benefit that nobody can ever take away from you. it also makes you more appealing to potential partners, so there's that.


But I don't think anyone can actually be happy with themselves.. I'm constantly angry at myself for my failures, failure is unacceptable, I have to be BETTER than that.. if I was happy with myself.. it would mean also being accepting or happy with my failures.



hyperlexian
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12 Jan 2013, 8:59 am

rabbittss wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
erm, it actually isn't a cop out. you get the benefit of being happy whether you are in a relationship or not, so it is the absolute ultimate benefit that nobody can ever take away from you. it also makes you more appealing to potential partners, so there's that.


But I don't think anyone can actually be happy with themselves.. I'm constantly angry at myself for my failures, failure is unacceptable, I have to be BETTER than that.. if I was happy with myself.. it would mean also being accepting or happy with my failures.

well, it would mean that you would learn from them and move on, a least. or that you wouldn't punish yourself for them or define yourself by them. success and failure are facts of life, not personal indicators of self-worth.


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LittleTigger
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12 Jan 2013, 9:05 am

Same with me.
I would rather play with my Hotwheels than bother
with a reships. I don't want a girlfrend.

I want to play with my toys in the garden.


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rabbittss
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12 Jan 2013, 9:17 am

hyperlexian wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
erm, it actually isn't a cop out. you get the benefit of being happy whether you are in a relationship or not, so it is the absolute ultimate benefit that nobody can ever take away from you. it also makes you more appealing to potential partners, so there's that.


But I don't think anyone can actually be happy with themselves.. I'm constantly angry at myself for my failures, failure is unacceptable, I have to be BETTER than that.. if I was happy with myself.. it would mean also being accepting or happy with my failures.

well, it would mean that you would learn from them and move on, a least. or that you wouldn't punish yourself for them or define yourself by them. success and failure are facts of life, not personal indicators of self-worth.


Failure cannot teach you anything except how to lower your standards in order to alleviate guilt over not succeeding. Punishment is a natural human reaction to failure and disappointment, if I weren't weak, I wouldn't have failed, therefore I must punish myself in order to grow stronger. I believe in the pursuit of happiness, not the false ideal of deluding yourself into feeling you have attained it.



hyperlexian
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12 Jan 2013, 9:25 am

rabbittss wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
erm, it actually isn't a cop out. you get the benefit of being happy whether you are in a relationship or not, so it is the absolute ultimate benefit that nobody can ever take away from you. it also makes you more appealing to potential partners, so there's that.


But I don't think anyone can actually be happy with themselves.. I'm constantly angry at myself for my failures, failure is unacceptable, I have to be BETTER than that.. if I was happy with myself.. it would mean also being accepting or happy with my failures.

well, it would mean that you would learn from them and move on, a least. or that you wouldn't punish yourself for them or define yourself by them. success and failure are facts of life, not personal indicators of self-worth.


Failure cannot teach you anything except how to lower your standards in order to alleviate guilt over not succeeding. Punishment is a natural human reaction to failure and disappointment, if I weren't weak, I wouldn't have failed, therefore I must punish myself in order to grow stronger. I believe in the pursuit of happiness, not the false ideal of deluding yourself into feeling you have attained it.

that... doesn't really make sense. failure shows you what you did the wrong way, or shows you how you were not suited to something. it is not an evaluation of you as a person. strength doesn't lead to success on its own, it can lead to a brittle lack of tenacity. success is mitigated by many factors, some of them outside of a person's control.

all your other stuff about punishment is just strange and nietszchean (not a great role model for life skills, evidently).

i don't believe in delusion either - self-acceptance means accepting yourself, warts and all. no pretense or facade. the upside is that it makes other people more tolerable to you, as well.


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rabbittss
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12 Jan 2013, 9:37 am

Well I agree about lack of tenacity, if you've been shown to be a failure over and over again, why bother trying, since evidence would seem to suggest you're going to fail again. Some people are just that, failures, and some lack the drive and will to stop being failures.

I agree that there are simply things which are outside of the individuals control, but if you're not actively trying to better everything about you that is within your zone of control, then you're being far to accepting of things which could stand improvement, Now if you're already a billionaire, model, philanthropist, deep sea explorer... I'd guess you could probably rest on your laurels... but as soon as you do it stuffs going to start slipping away. The thing is, it's the things OUTSIDE of my ability to control that make me the most unhappy because I cannot control them.

I don't believe in free will as a result, not in the ultimate sense, considering you have no control over the most important aspects which govern your life. You can't decide who you are born too, you cannot decide how wealthy your family is, you cannot decide where you are born or in what time period, you cannot decide what sort of society you are governed by, and you cannot decide how other people will treat you during your life. Sure, you can choose to have oat bran for breakfast instead of a chocolate cheese danish.. but you're still limited in your choices due to the logistical limitations of a given society, as well as your socio-economic status inside of that society. So the few things you do have direct control over, you have to exert that control with an iron fist.

I mean, none of this really has anything to do with the topic though. I just don't see any reason to be happy with my life when it's not going the way I want it to go. If I wanted a steak for dinner, and I got half of a mcdonalds hamburger, I'd be pretty pissed off.



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12 Jan 2013, 6:07 pm

While I do feel like a failure most times, and I'm always striving to be better, I am happy within myself with myself because I know that I could survive on my own and that I try to be the best I can be.

I do love being around others though.


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12 Jan 2013, 9:25 pm

rabbittss wrote:
I get so sick of seeing that "Happy on my own" or "Happy with myself" stuff.. it's such a cop out.


This.

If you're one of the 10% of all men who get 80% of all the single women, you can be "happy on your own", but if you're like me (and haven't been laid in ages) or you're one of the guys who've never ever been in a relationship, it's extremely difficult.

Not accepting the status quo is what drives us to seek out relationships, better our education, beef up in the gym and all that. If you do nothing, nothing is what you'll get; men have the active role in dating, therefore, it does not "just happen when one least expects it".



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13 Jan 2013, 12:11 am

Kurgan wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
I get so sick of seeing that "Happy on my own" or "Happy with myself" stuff.. it's such a cop out.


This.

If you're one of the 10% of all men who get 80% of all the single women, you can be "happy on your own", but if you're like me (and haven't been laid in ages) or you're one of the guys who've never ever been in a relationship, it's extremely difficult.

Not accepting the status quo is what drives us to seek out relationships, better our education, beef up in the gym and all that. If you do nothing, nothing is what you'll get; men have the active role in dating, therefore, it does not "just happen when one least expects it".


+1, except maybe the 10% of men getting 80% of women part. Not 100% how much I believe that one, although it is probably true to a lesser extent.



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13 Jan 2013, 1:11 am

If you're not happy with yourself, how can you ever expect women to be happy with you?

The reality is that you can feel justified in your self-pity all you want, but if you want to see yourself as successful it all starts with building self-confidence. The lack of it is pretty unappealing and generally seen as toxic. Much of it is this idea that having a girlfriend is this prize, the apex of achievement that you really want but can't have because of your own deficiencies.

Believe it or not, there's as many women out there as there are men. I do believe that the majority of women(not the really popular ones, not the losers) are just normal people who look for the same qualities in men that you would want in a woman, except that they've learned lessons early on that it's better to be single than to be in a toxic relationship. I imagine this is probably because of social conventions, they've already been asked out at some point in time and had to deal with these issues early on, as well as having the lessons passed down from other females in their life. Us guys don't normally have that luxury if we're too shy to take the risk of getting rejected or don't get a lot of interest. This leads us to see a relationship as a major life accomplishment because it's so pervasive, which leads to getting into the first relationship you can(and because of the 50/50 ratio of men to women, it isn't impossible if you're at all social, even in a limited sense).

So you know what happens then? You start learning the lessons that women have learned much earlier. You have a really bad relationship, and you realize it's better to be single. So congrats, you've finally learned the hard way. Then you start making a list of the traits you want out of a woman, and when you compare that to what women want you might actually find a lot of similarities. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why.

Want a shortcut? My suggestion is to try to befriend a woman or two with every expectation of keeping your relationship platonic. You can even do this online, it doesn't have to be someone who lives nearby. Talk to them about relationships and all these other things on a "friend" level, you might actually gain some insight that you can use to find a woman you'd be happy with. You might also learn a few things about improving yourself to make yourself happier and more confident. If you're too shy or not social enough to do this, I guess you know what you need to work on first.



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13 Jan 2013, 1:18 am

Shau wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
I get so sick of seeing that "Happy on my own" or "Happy with myself" stuff.. it's such a cop out.


This.

If you're one of the 10% of all men who get 80% of all the single women, you can be "happy on your own", but if you're like me (and haven't been laid in ages) or you're one of the guys who've never ever been in a relationship, it's extremely difficult.

Not accepting the status quo is what drives us to seek out relationships, better our education, beef up in the gym and all that. If you do nothing, nothing is what you'll get; men have the active role in dating, therefore, it does not "just happen when one least expects it".


+1, except maybe the 10% of men getting 80% of women part. Not 100% how much I believe that one, although it is probably true to a lesser extent.

its true but those are exaggerated figures.