Do the majority of guys with A.S. never get a girlfriend?

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That's kind of what I had said about that particular point. Not apologising after making a mistake is not really an AS issue. You must be careful about attributing all bad behaviour to AS.

Most relationships and half of marriages fail in the US and in many parts of the worlds so it's certainly not AS making these numbers; it's a no-brainer to realize that.

I get the hunch that this is a main factor in answering the original question. We like methods and routine to what we do, and romance buds a little more spontaneously, often requires good reading of one another's intentions to pull off, but at least it can come from almost any situation on some occasion, and not just in a loud bar while under the influence. The uninitiated straight aspergic man often has to wait for the odd chance of being directly asked out, being paired off by a friend, or even having her wrap her arms around him and pull him down before he realises he likes what's happening. But if he pulls it off once he's much more in the know on how it might work for the future.

As for half this thread devolving into maintaining relationships and marriages, meh. As far as I see it these things always needs work, and even if the eros vanishes the overriding, super-strong friendship bond should remain as a foundation.

Oh and tarantella, this one's for you. I think that a lot of the time when NT's seem to be doing a lot of work on their relationship with the AS partner and it doesn't seem to help, it's mostly because they actually lack an understanding of the disorder. There are a number of books on this topic that include suggesting ways of getting around this misinterpretation problem that you keep alluding to when communicating. Fore example, there's this one that's actually been written by someone with a PhD in psychology:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1608820777/ref=rdr_ext_sb_ti_sims_8

Here's a good one that's written by woman who actually managed to get her NT/AS relationship to work despite running into absolutely all the issues that you've mentioned:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1843107341/wrongplanet-20?creative=125581&camp=2321&link_code=as1

There are a few other's like Jerry Newport's book, which he wrote about his relationship with his wife and both of them have AS. Some people seem to like Maxine Aston's book "The Other Half of Asperger's" but some don't because they feel that it actually put's down people with AS.

The problem with asking male aspies to remain persistent and confident is that the nature of the amount of rejections we often have to go through to learn 'how it works' is actually detrimental to confidence-building, a human can only take so much failure before their self-esteem evaporates, aspies are not unfeeling robots, each rejections always hurts like hell.

I mean I still remember the faces of each and every rejection I received... and in fact, it hurts me so much now that I tend to avoid women with those similar characteristics in a true PTSD manner... This is the sort of upwards climb a lot of us have to face, and with each rejection the hill gets steeper and steeper, and then people will blame me for feeling emotions, for being disappointed in all my failures.

Believe me, if I could put my hand in that 'fire' and not feel anything, I would do it, but because I'm human, that means the fire is going to hurt like hell, worse yet is that my conditions means that the fire will burn me much more often than otherwise.

This is probably the sort of pitfall that tons of male aspies fall into, myself included. One that's nearly impossible to climb out of without a sheer amount of luck, or without a tremendous support system of friends and family.

OK y'all

OF COURSE I've tried seeking outside help.

No, I'm not a psychologist, but I am well educated with degrees in physical and social science and a career's worth of experience of social research and diagnosing cultural and behavioural issues inside organisations. I'm capable of reading diagnostic criteria and matching these to the behaviours and characteristics of someone I've lived with for most of my adult life. So while I acknowledge that this isn't an official diagnosis and only an educated hunch - I feel pretty confident.

Since this dawning realisation, I have researched and read about and tried to implement ways of improving relationships between AS/NT partners. But I am exhausted from doing ALL the work in this area and worn down from the criticism, the meltdowns and the over-prioritisation of special interests. I have a responsibility to myself to address and fulfil my own needs.

OF COURSE not all of his behaviours are Aspergers caused (assuming you grant me for a moment that I may be right). But if Aspergers is part of who you are then at the very least it's a confounding factor. And certainly I believe it to be more than that.

Jono you talk about meltdowns as if they are some kind of meaningless symptom of the condition. But in fact they are damaging and hurtful and abusive. You may think the intention means they are not abusive but abuse is defined by behaviour and impact and not intent. Many NT abusers feel out-of-control when they abuse, but that doesn't make it not abuse. Yes, I can see what influences the onset of metldowns, certain stressors and in particular auditory stimuli - but a lot of these are outside of MY control, yet I bear the brunt of the results. His behaviour is HIS responsibility. I have spent much of my marriage tip-toeing around him and trying to make sure not to upset him. But sometimes life means that he's upset by something else or I need him to fulfil something in his role of father/husband/family member.

And the thing about emotional support...sometimes when you need it most are the times that you are least able to articulate it. But I have tried doing so...dispassionately on many occasions. I have asked for specific and concrete and quite reasonable behaviour changes only to be met by excuses or outrage. I've tried writing it down. I've tried going through a therapist.

For individuals on the spectrum, you can continue to deny that asperger tendencies are damaging to relationships or you can work on your own or with your partner to moderate those behaviours. No one is saying that ALL the work should be on the AS side. No one who goes into a relationship should think that all the work and compromise should be one-sided. But that's what many of us who have married AS partners have found expected of us.

"Meltdown" is BS, here I am saying it, there's no "Meltdown" in the Autism's diagnostic criteria, there's almost no "Meltdown" in the serious psychiatric/psychology literature, and from what I've heard from WP users about Meltdowns are different things that already have names in english: Tantrum, losing temper, panic, mental breakdown, extreme need for isolation, short-timed extreme depression, short-timed extreme anxiety.....ETC ETC ETC 1000 x ETC.

Out of the 10000000 threads on WP regarding "Meltdown" and you still can't pinpoint a single definition of "Meltdown" because it can mean anything, it is probably a word invented by WP users and other autism boards internet users (or was mentioned in some book I dunno and later on adopted) to describe thing(S) they think they're "unique" for aspies but they're not, these "Meltdowns" happen to many struggling NTs and people with other disorders, this word by itself is totally meaningless.

If a husband shut downs on himself that's not "Meltdown", that's simply called shutting down on himself.

If a husband can't work or do anything because he's too depressed, that's not "Meltdown", that's simply called extreme depression.

If a husband loses temper at the slightest things that's not "Meltdown", that's simply called a profound lack of anger management.

If a husband keeps insulting his wife, that's not "Meltdown", that's simply called a verbally abusive husband who needs to learn manners and a divorce.

If a husband hits his wife, that's not "Meltdown", that's simply called a violent husband who needs to be in jail.

Meltdown is bollocks.

OK - was that addressed to me?

Whatever... I use meltdown because it's an accepted shorthand for a set of observable behaviours.

You can continue to ignore my main point and be distracted by details as a way of diverting from the real issue here. I'm kinda used to that behaviour.

It was addressed to the whole WP who keep using the term "meltdown", it's nonsense at all.

This is also the kind of stuff that can legitimately be dealt with in therapy, with the right therapist. I have to wonder though how many in that situation seek out a therapist they can click with specifically to address these issues.

I think I'm a bit like Klowglas here, but I wouldn't restrict it to rejection specifically. It's more generally that many things about relationships with other people make me feel bad in some way - whether it's confused, anxious, hurt, depressed, whatever. You can say it's stupid, irrational, I shouldn't feel those things, etc. - but the fact is, I do. It's just like sneezing being very unpleasant for me - perhaps it shouldn't be, perhaps it's not like that for most people (some people even like it!), but that's just how I experience it.

I highly doubt it's something therapy can help. It's theoretically possible, of course, but most therapists are worse than useless and I just can't see what even a good one could do to make me experience the world differently. Even the mere fact of seeing a therapist would be setting myself up for the almost-inevitable disappointment of having gone to all that trouble and expense for nothing.

If this sounds like I'm one of those people that just never give things a go - I'm not. I do give things a go, but it's been my experience that if I'm fairly sure that something will go a certain way then it usually does. Is it a self-fulfilling prophecy or do I actually just know myself well and think things through carefully? Who knows, but the implication is the same either way.

...I'm not sure how to answer at this point without seeming like I'm pushy or insensitive or any of the things that might now potentially attributed to me [possibly because of my perceived gender?]. :/

I *could* say that how you feel about relationships with other people [or how you end up feeling in regards to them] is "stupid, irrational" or that you shouldn't feel that way... but I'm not about to. Because I have often felt similar to what you describe. I'm not going to try to keep driving the point home, but I found that therapy with the _right_ therapist helped me to figure out how to clarify boundaries, prioritize my needs, see when people actually suck, understand when I am spreading myself too thin, etc etc etc.

I think when one doesn't inherently understand the rules to the game and tries to constantly learn by observation, you don't necessarily understand the motivations OR the coping tactics to manage your personal resources.
Anyway, I know this is kind of tangent-like, but the boundaries, prioritizing helped though not every therapist is going to understand how to work with adults on the spectrum.

No, you don't sound pushy or insensitive if you've been through something similar yourself. I'm glad to hear therapy has helped you. Even though I'm still not about to seek out a therapist, it is a positive thing to hear, so - thanks.

Okay but I still think that it needs an official diagnosis. Even if he has AS, he probably doesn't realise or know the differences, he's gotten to adulthood not being diagnosed with it.



I seriously don't think that refusing to apologise for something due it being an accident really has anything to do with Asperger's. You said in a previous post that he broke something due to being clumsy and then refusing to apologise for because it was not his "fault". It is his fault because he broke it, so he's not taking responsibility for being negligent.



No, I was trying to make sure that the meltdowns that you were talking about is what I understand to be meltdowns and not fits of rage or aggression used for coercion and control that are associated with abusive relationships. Meltdowns are not about control and are due to overload of stimuli rather than about anger. Meltdowns don't just happen spontaneously, it's built up by all sorts of stresses, including possibly sensory stimuli over the course of a day or possibly over weeks. I used to have them regularly when I was child and a teenager but for me, they happen more rarely now. In order to control them, you have to diffuse them before they happen. I appreciate that the environmental factors that cause them are not something that you can control but in order to stop a meltdown from happening, one has to recognise that one is coming and then remove oneself from the stressful situation (including sensory stimuli like lot's of noise) before it get's to the point you have a meltdown and there's a complete loss of control. You might notice a change in his behaviour leading up to the meltdown but the one to realise it the earliest will probably be him. It's not just one particular thing like whatever upset him just before the meltdown, there's a whole buildup, that one particular thing may just be the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak.



I understand that. I'm not able to articulate my feelings sometimes either. He may be perceiving what you're saying to him about behavioural changes as a personal attack, rather than what you're intended it for. I would start the conversation by saying "I feel.." or "this is how I feel", rather than "please do this". People with ASD's communicate differently from NT's. You have to be direct when communicating with him, don't just hint, otherwise there'll be misunderstandings.



Yes, but it's very difficult to change. Most adults with AS learn to compensate in places like work environment, where you can use scripts for social interaction but that doesn't work intimate relationships. You cannot hide AS traits from family or an intimate partner. Many AS partner's do try to work quite hard on the relationship even when it seems to NT partner that they aren't doing anything but meanwhile it's just as hard for them as it is for the NT. Some don't even know how to change or what's expected of them because it's the way they've always been. They don't know how an NT mind works differently from theirs, especially the ones who undiagnosed or are only diagnosed recently in adulthood.

No Boo, "meltdown" is definitely a recognised word in the english language. If you look it up in any dictionary, the definition of "meltdown" is a "complete emotional breakdown, usually due to overloaded stimuli". I've looked it up in several on-line dictionaries just to reply to this comment. While they are not exclusive to autistics and NT's can have them, ASD's actually have several symptoms that would make them far more frequent in people with ASD's. Among the symptoms of Autism Spectrum Disorder that make it more likely for autistics to have meltdowns include things like sensory integration problems and rigid routines. So, too much sensory input (auditory or visual stimuli) could be too much for the brain of an autistic person to process and thus eventually cause a meltdown, or possibly a disruption of a rigid routine could also do it. NT's can also have meltdowns but it usually takes something extreme to do it. And no, it's not the same as a temper tantrum because temper tantrums are about anger and are usually controlled and directed to get a particular outcome, while meltdowns are more about stress than anger, are usually undirected and there's a complete loss of control.

or ADHD which can cause irriation with small things go wrong. I believe this is where that comes from for me. I get upset and most times I control it, but like the other day I messed up 3 hamburgers, which really sucked and costed alot and then a 3 fell apart and my mom took the spatula from me to fix it without giving me a chance to. I was upset about the 3 then to add the others I felt bad for messing upt why didn't i see it would happen with the first one. so I hit the bbq with the spatula I rarely do that. perhaps a stress ball would help?

sometimes I just hold/tightly cuddle a stuffy or do breathing exercises . then I have very rare panic attacks i guess one would call them that. my boy tenses up and feels weird. I have to hold still why I wait for it to past. talks about rape/sexual abuse or losing a loved one can bring this on. and I feel like i shouldnt' talk sometimes and a need to go hide. I never considered this melt downs.

I've been told when I was 4-6ish I would curl into a ball and rock unresponsive. this is what I consider a melt down and what some people here have described.