Creepiness

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I really like this podcast called The F Plus. Their motto is "Terrible things, read with enthusiasm". They look at terrible web forums and read them out loud. Most of the time it's hilarious. But some of the time they just make me so mad. They deal with many humorous subjects and look at all kinds of forums but one of their favourite targets is those dateless wonders such as can be found here on L&D.

They've devoted a number of episodes to reading from forums for dateless guys. Their mockery starts by saying "Why don't they just ask a girl out"? Fair enough. I know that it can be hard to ask girls out when you have social anxiety but if you want to date girls you have to ask them out at some point.

Social anxiety is a very real fear and you can't just ask out random girls on the bus or at the gym. It's not as simple as people make it sound when they say "Getting a date is easy, just ask a girl out".

So they keep reading. They read another forum post in which the poster describes how he asked a girl out. Then they keep saying he's a creep.

That's like catch-22. If you don't ask a girl out you're a pathetic loser and if you do ask a girl out, you're a creep.

I'm not specifically mad at this podcast but I think it's a good example of how society in general views dateless guys.

Society mocks guys for not asking a girl out and then expresses disgust when he does ask a girl out.

So the podcast (and society in general) says the guy asking a girl out is a creep because he only wants sex.

What bugs me about this, is that it forces guys into such narrow boxes. On the one side, is the virgin shaming. They say a virgin is not a man. On the other side, is the PC view that if a guy is attracted to a girl he's objectifying her and he's a creep.

The virgin shaming crowd and the PC crowd are not two different crowds. I've heard both views expressed by the same people.

So these people say a guy has to get a girlfriend but without doing anything they deem "creepy" like asking a girl out. That's an oxymoron!

That's the view I hear from society. Apparently because asking a girl out implies that you're attracted to her, which somehow means you're a sex maniac.

Traditional masculinity is already a very narrow box the squeeze guys into but now guys are expected to simultaneously adhere to traditional masculinity and PC values at the same time? The area of overlap between these two zones is tiny.

So then the readers of the podcast continue to reflect the attitude held by society that dateless guys are sex maniacs. So the guys who are having the least sex, are the sex maniacs. That's sort of like accusing paupers of hoarding all the money.

Even if you've never had sex, you're a sex maniac for wanting it. So basically society says to be a real man you must have sex but at the same time, you must not want to have sex because that makes you a sex fiend. So society expects you to have sex without wanting to have sex.

The F Plus readers love accusing their targets of not being PC. They spend a lot of time talking about how they never insult women or gays or ethnic minorities. But they don't mind making fun of people with aspergers. That's not ableist because people with aspergers are acceptable targets (just like Dutch people).



They act like dateless guys are all potential rapists even though a woman is more likely to be raped by her partner than a guy she's never met. A guy who's too nervous to approach a girl is probably the last guy who would try anything like that. Society associating asking a girl out with rape is only going to make shy guys more shy.

The reason why shy guys are afraid to asks girls out is because our culture labels them as sex maniacs.

There was one episode that really made me mad. In it they criticise these dateless guys for not considering what women are thinking (easier said than done for us folks who lack mirror neurons), they accuse dateless guys of misogyny, they say accuse dateless guys of trying to become "real men" by having sex and say that doesn't make you a real man. This comes after an hour of them saying dateless guys aren't real men. That's some high octane cognitive dissonance there.

Basically in the same breath they'll make fun of guys for trying to have sex and also for not trying to have sex. Another narrow box from society, "Why don't you ever try to get a date" - "stop being a tryhard". Such doublethink. George Orwell would be proud.

They say if a guy says he's not a misogynist that counts as evidence that he's a misogynist (they say after an hour of virtue signalling).

Proof that our society values conformity over creativity. If you speak differently from normal people or if you move differently from normal people, society says that means you're a creep and a potential rapist.

I'm so glad all this political correctness means we're not discriminated against. /sarcasm

People say guys should take a risk and ask a girl out. I get that when you ask a girl out there is a risk of rejection. I accept that risk but the implication expressed by both girls and guys is that before a guy asks a girl out, he should first read her mind to find out of he's her type because if he asks her out and she doesn't like him that makes him a creep.

I don't want to pin this entirely on girls. A lot of the creep accusations come from guys. e.g. the podcast is mostly guys.

There are a lot of lonely girls who are wondering why no guy has asked them out. Maybe this type of attitude is why. If you call guys who ask girls out creeps, that means there's going to be some lonely girl out there who doesn't get asked out. So such attitudes are harmful to both men and women. For every lonely guy there's a lonely girl.

And they make fun of guys who still live at home. Living at home is not a bad thing. I know working guys and girls who are living at home while either saving up the deposit to buy a house (using all the money they have from not paying rent) or leasing out their investment property as their tenants pay of their mortgage for them.

I'm sure the real estate agencies think it's a great idea if everyone moves out of home at 18.

Anyway I don't get how our society can simultaneously shame guys for asking girls out and for not asking girls out. I don't get how they can say that asking a girl out makes them a creep.

Have any of you ever met with such hostility online or in real life?

I find that it is pretty much like this when one is young.

It gets less, though, as both genders grow up.

That's been my experience.

and I'm a 5 foot 4.75 inch man who is somewhat chubby, and with not the greatest social skills. And I'd I have a receding hairline, too. And I'm beginning to look my 55 years.

Women in their 30's have a wider range of "behaviors" which they "tolerate" and even are delighted with. Because they have been around awhile, have had lousy experiences with "alpha male/boy toy/model" types, and realize that such a narrow range is detrimental to them living a decent life. They are also delighted with more, in general.

Girls of high school/University age tend not to have had these experiences, and are more influenced by media portrayals of "ideal men." And have not had negative experiences with "alpha male/boy toy/model" types.

This tendency is definitely not universal, though. Many young girls/women realize that a well-rounded, "realistic-looking" guy is preferable to those model types (even while they have superficial fantasies about these types).

Kraftie you give me hope for humanity. I'm glad to hear not everyone is as immature as the internet generation.

Honestly I think nowadays people mature more slowly. Remember when it was common for people to marry in their early twenties? Not anymore. Maybe all these accusations of creepiness are why people now marry older than they used to.

I don't think that's the 'PC view'. Seems more a strawman than anything. Finding someone attractive isn't the same as objectifying them in the slightest.

But, I wouldn't be surprised if some people genuinely believed it, because the world has never lacked for stupid people believing stupid things.



Times are a-changing, as ever.

Besides, that's a false dichotomy. Do you really suppose every single heterosexual male in a relationship fits that small overlap? Be how you think you ought to. Just understand any ramifications, and take responsibility for them.



No, but then I avoid jerks. I don't take them seriously, and I don't seek out their opinions. I pay attention to interesting, thoughtful people.

I think one thing to bear in mind is people are looking for jokes, for punchlines. In comedy, it's 'punching down'. Post the advent of PC, it's harder to find people to punch down on. Can't mock ethnic or sexual minorities, can't mock women, let's mock the weirdos!

(INB4 anyone mentions it, I attack the Nice Guys and Friendzoners out of love for my fellow humans, and my hatred of bad thinking. I don't do it for the sniggery lols).

The ideas and thinking and arguments around romantic relationships and sexuality and gender are pretty much universally shoddy and appalling, with way way too much prescribing and proscribing from all sides, and too little patient analysis. Mary Midgley compared philosophy to plumbing, in that it's not something we pay attention to or are even aware of until it starts to go wrong. I think there's a lot of leaky pipes right now. My sympathies are with those deemed 'PC', but I still think the thinking generally stinks.

Mostly, I would advise avoiding (and not paying mind to) idiots and jerks, and instead take an interest in the mature and thoughtful. A lot of this will be young people, who substitute life experience and thinking with big ideas that best rationalise their leanings.

Young people are idealistic by nature----they tend to not be very flexible in their thinking. If somebody does not believe one smidgen of what they believe in--or even try to render the idea more "moderate"--they tend to believe the person is TOTALLY against their notions.

As people get older, and gain life experience, a flexibility tends to develop--either through hard-won experience, or through a more truly reflective mindset.

This is true in the selection of boyfriends/girlfriends. While there continues to be idealization even into old age, one comes to the realization that "real people" who don't necessarily fulfill the "ideals," are more suitable to them, more realistic, and give them more pleasure. They can be more "themselves" with these people.

There is the tendency for "idealized" people to know "why" they are idealized, and to treat "regular" people like "peasants. Even this tends to be modified through life experience. Older models are much more easier to deal with than younger models.

They might fantasize about the "idealized" person while in bed with the "real person," but they value the "real person" more, and respect that person. Primarily because of shared life experience.

Yes, and the likely reason for this is that there is a lot of competition between the genders in relationships. Males and females have their own "standards" and preferences that they want to enforce, and they are not compatible. Still, it is mostly males that are policing things, including having appalling attitudes towards sexual minorities. That's probably related to perceived immoral competition. That's why we have feminists rambling on about Nice Guys, and putting blame on guys that cannot get into relationship calling them creeps and potential rapists. It's all part of the war between the genders.

As for age and experience, older age is not always better. With more experience, both male and female NDs also experience lots of bad things, and not all of them handles it well. That means many males and females in their 30s are full of negativity and perceived notions of how the opposite gender operates, often based on popular people that have behaved like jerks. But, I agree that positive ND girls in their 30s are really cool and perfect partners for NDs, but they are not easy to come by.

Men are the disposable sex, there has never been anything in my life that tells me otherwise.

It's important to understand that just because someone says you are a creep or acts like they think you are a creep, does not mean you are a creep, or even acted in a creepy or inappropriate manner.

For those who struggle socially, learning and sticking to basic etiquette can go a long way, because it helps take away some of the perceived arbitrary nature to socialization (it's not arbitrary, there are rules). It's like math. Some people have good intuition for it, and some people need to stick to the order of operations because they don't really understand what's going on, but know if they follow procedure, they are doing things mathematically correct.

For example, suppose it's raining and you saw a girl standing in the rain waiting for a cab, and you had an umbrella. If you walked up to her and said "Excuse me ma'am, would you like to use my umbrella?"

That's not creepy, that's polite and considerate. Even if she responds by pegging you as a creep, you should be secure enough in your understanding of etiquette to feel confident that you did nothing inappropriate and she is the one with the problem (NTs do have their problems you know).

A few other pointers...
1. If she is giving short answers and not carrying the conversation, or if she is walking away from you, she is not interested, so don't pursue her.

2. Don't ask strangers intrusive questions. These are questions, the answers to which, would put them at risk if you were a dangerous person.
For example, "What's your number?" "Do you live around here?", "Where do you live?" "Where do you work?"
Instead, you can give them your number, and if they want to contact you, or reciprocate by giving you their number, they can. If they are receptive to a conversation with you, then it's ok to ask what they do for a living, and it should be a conversation. A lot of guys get pegged as creepy because they machine gun intrusive questions at women like they are interrogating them.

3. Don't stand near her staring at her and just breathing because you don't know what to say. That is creepy when anyone does it.

And this last one isn't about not being creepy, but about how you approach the situation with less anxiety.
4. Remember, she is not yet the love of her life, and you might not even like her once you get to know her. You are not asking the love of your life to marry you. You are asking a girl you don't really know if she wants to go do something fun together. You want to go do something fun and was wondering if she wants to join you.

Actually, giving a woman your number without asking for hers is considered inappropriate and awkward.

It makes much more sense to ask for her number, and if she says yes, then give her yours.

"Remember, she is not yet the love of her life, and you might not even like her once you get to know her. You are not asking the love of your life to marry you. You are asking a girl you don't really know if she wants to go do something fun together. You want to go do something fun and was wondering if she wants to join you."

But some women tend to be suspicious or cautious.

It's not just asking someone if they want to 'get to know each other' and 'have fun together'.

This is some stranger man who wants to text or go on a date after a 5 minute positive conversation with mild flirting.

She might be physically attracted to him and enjoyed his company, but he's still a stranger, is physically stronger than her and a threat.

He could lead her to a dark alley and do bad things to her, or slip something into her drink on the date and date r*pe her, he "probably only wants sex", "he probably only wants an FWB", etc.

Plenty of women can think all of these things over 'he only wants to hang out and have some fun on a date and get to know me'.

Guilty until proven innocent.

Practising social ettiquette?

Easier said than done.

Some women will completely and absolutely decide a man is a 'creep' or some absolute sociopath clearly putting on an act for even the tiniest slip up.

Aspie men trying to put on an N.T. act can do pretty well, but it's the 'Uncanny Valley' factor that can ruin it.

Strangely enough, the only thing that actually works for me, is the definite "creep" behavior of "staring" at a girl. It won't work on NTs, but it will work on a few NDs.

Should I really care? Not really. I've developed good enough compensations so I will never stare too much at an NT.

I think I have the uncanny valley factor. I can say the right things but I speak I'm from some unknown foreign country and I move like a malfunctioning robot.

When girls see me speak and move the wrong way they either think it means I'm a pathetic dork or they think it's proof I'm a serial killer.

If they succeed in making everyone regard you as a creep and getting you to suffer the consequences of being a creep, then, for all practical purposes, they have managed to make it true that you are a creep. Denying it is only a philosophical stance with no meaning in the real world. They are socially skilled and know how to play the social game without being constrained by the annoying boundaries of knowledge or truth, to the point that they get to change truth itself as far as practical results are concerned.



I have tried that in the past, and it usually results in someone intentionally breaking those rules, in a way which is, however, socially acceptable, only to throw me off and expose my social awkwardness and other weaknesses. They seem to get fed up quickly with the artificiality of my etiquette and the pretence that I’m a normal person and deserve to be treated like one.



I wouldn’t do that in a million years. I’d be just asking either her or a third party who saw us to brand me the most contemptible creep in the world and to make me rue the day I tried to get close to that girl with the pathetic excuse of letting her use my umbrella. If she actually wanted me to shelter her from the rain, she could ask for it herself—but I’d really expect her to have enough dignity to get soaked rather than ask anything from a creep like me, who doesn’t belong anywhere less than a mile away from the nearest female of his species. And, if she did ask for it, I’d expect to be already in trouble anyway.



What I wonder is how on Earth people get in that situation in the first place. In order to have a conversation to carry on, you need to have started it first.



I’m not sure there are non-intrusive questions you can ask strangers. The safest policy I know is to refrain from asking them anything, ever.



In other words, stay the hell away and mind your own goddamn business. Strangers are meant to remain strangers—especially those you most crave to get close to. Lonely people are meant to remain lonely.



And probably the two most likely true answers, assuming she doesn’t have a boyfriend and isn’t married, are these:

• “No, I’m busy—leave me the hell alone.”

• “Yes, I want to go do something fun—leave me the hell alone so I can actually enjoy it, either on my own or with someone actually desirable.”

But don't you mainly go for Asian women?

People from different countries tend to be more friendly, tolerant and accepting of weirdness or quirkiness because:

1. They don't understand the culture of the new country they're living in all that well yet.

2. Their own cultural traditions, customs and personal demeanor and way of speech, etc. might all be seen as strange by the new country and so they'd be more tolerant of cultural difference in return.

This is why it's good to be pursue foreign women new to the country while you can - you've gotta capture their heart before they realize how much of a anti-social weirdo you're supposed to be, by the time they realize, it's too late and they're already in love.

But are you honestly telling me even Asian women from foreign countries who barely know the culture, let alone the LANGUAGE, can see you as strange and different (in a bad way)?

If so, we're screwed.

It's a giveaway, unfortunately. You're obviously not comfortable in your own skin, and you're obviously putting on an act. They pick up on that, and then have to interpret it as to why. Social relations rely on trust and warmth. By putting on such an ill-fitting act, you're giving them reason to eye you suspiciously.

The difficulty being how much of social interaction is about an act, but in those cases it's a sincere act. As the song had it, it's not what you do, it's the way that you do it.

I'm TG (female to male, although I am usually regarded as female) and I've chosen to be celibate, so none of this dreadful messiness applies to me. I do, however, know what it is like to seek a boyfriend as a young woman.

One thing that I would like to highlight, which may have been overlooked, is the very real and often justified fear of violence or coercion. It isn't a choice or a conscious decision. Some women are triggered by the approaches and advances of men seeking relationships. It's a primal fear, not intentional descrimination. If she doesn't trust you, tough luck. Trust can be earned, but it's easy to slip into harassment like behaviour in doing so.

When I researched this (catcalling), it turned out that NDs disliked this a lot more than NTs, and some NTs even enjoyed it. Which doesn't surprise me because being approached by a stranger, for whatever reason, is not how the natural ND courtship works. It's also this that ND guys have problems with, and cannot do naturally.