Self-loathing and relationships

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This has been brought up in certain posts as of late and there seem to be two sides. On one hand are those who say you have to love yourself if anyone else is to love you; on the other hand are those who say “love yourself” just means “stop complaining, we don’t care and don’t want to hear it.” Further, this is complicated by the fact that continued singlehood contributes to a Catch-22 that makes improved self-esteem impossible for some, to wit: to attract someone, you need good self-esteem; to have good self-esteem, you need to attract someone.

My position ignores the self-esteem problem altogether and negates the Catch-22. Self-esteem, in my view, isn’t necessary in attracting MOOS. Neither is self-love, for that matter. But self-loathing clearly seems to be a repulsive attribute, and I think a conscious effort at self-love is a likely remedy.

First of all, I define love not as emotion, but rather action. Love as emotion is problematic because it's amorphous. How do you distinguish love from any desire or lust? Is attraction love? Is friendly affection love? Is infatuation love? Obsession? All or part of these things? If love is a feeling of desire, what distinguishes it from value? Or is value and love the same thing? Is there a threshold for love, and is that threshold clear and definite or is it dynamic and relative? Is it a consistent determinant of action or behavior?

I don’t believe it can be pinned down very easily, and I doubt there’s much agreement when you get right down to it. To me, the only definitions that make sense is either the behaviors one exhibits to benefit another person, or the emotions that motivate those same behaviors. The first definition doesn’t require emotion, whereas in the second definition behaviors are evidence of what someone feels. In either case, love can be observed in tangible, measurable, objective terms.

Hatred can similarly be described positively, as in existing for it’s own sake rather than the absence of love. The absence of love AND hate is simple indifference or ambivalence, whereas one or the other requires some kind of change to be evident.

Self-loathing, therefore, is any action or consequence of inaction that results in harm to the physical or emotional self. It need not be a conscious act or even a result of low self-esteem. Leading a sedentary lifestyle that causes poor physical health would be one example. Asking for love advice on a L&D forum and trolling people offering help by arguing and making excuses until they lose patience and start saying nasty things to or about you just so you can cry about how you keep getting bullied is another example. I could go on, but the end result is always the same. One either makes no effort to improve himself (or herself) to attract someone, or one doesn’t even approach MOOS in the first place.

Why is self-loathing so unattractive? I’m sure there are any number of reasons, some obvious and some not. My opinion is that people are attracted to what appears to bring them the most personal benefit. Someone who doesn’t take care of himself or even do simple things (Alex has mentioned camera lighting for online dating profile pics) to make himself attractive isn’t very interesting from the outset. Someone who lacks money and transportation is very limited in what they can do or bring to the relationship (hint: not all women are out for money and cars, but it’s SOMETHING. If you’re unemployed, that means you have TIME. Spending all your time listening to someone makes you interesting. Interesting makes you attractive. No credit card needed to ride that train).

Self-loathing is not only unattractive, but perhaps even repulsive for another reason, in my opinion. If you don’t care enough to love yourself by getting exercise, maintaining a healthy diet and lifestyle, to increase your income, to have reliable transportation, keep a clean house/apartment, or, if NOTHING ELSE at least bathe, brush your teeth, use mouthwash and deoderant (something other than Axe), then you seem more likely to not only harm yourself but cause harm to anyone who gets close to you. The idea is if you can’t be responsible for yourself, you can’t be responsible for another’s well being. Negative (harmful) behaviors tend to be contagious. I’m not talking about a guy who’s just “a little creepy.” I’m talking full-on axe-and-chainsaw with a side of sawed-off 12-gauge frightening. If she’s lucky, she ends up with someone who just gets her hooked on meth. I don’t believe little boys and girls say they want to grow up to be sex slaves, drug addicts, or parts in a pickle jar. It makes sense that they’d avoid people who show signs of destructive tendencies, people who show they can’t take care of themselves. EVEN IF these people aren’t drug addicts or serial slashers, they are still liable to cause harm through sheer negligence. Nobody WANTS a partner to take a bullet for her. But she’d rather be with someone who is at least WILLING to protect her from harm at all costs than someone who’d hand her right over to a sex trafficker at the first sign of trouble.

Self-LOVE, on the other hand, recognizes that the benefit to the other is ultimately benefit to one’s self. A clean home or apartment is a SAFE place. Clothes on the floor represent disease or falling hazard. Staying fit and healthy contribute to longevity, meaning she will have you around longer. Staying on top of sexual techniques means you’ll keep her satisfied. Sending her flowers “just because” endears you to her, which means she looks forward to being with you again. Being interested in what she says means she’ll listen to you right back when you have something importantly to say. Helping her, protecting her means she’ll do the same for you. Even though your actions do not directly or immediately benefit you, anything you do to contribute to her safety and sense of well-being will eventually come back to you, whether that means simple companionship, friendship, romantic love (don’t forget my previous definition of love—HERE we are talking about an emotional response), sex, doing YOUR dishes or laundry because she wants to, etc.

But self-love also displays an ease with which you are responsible for yourself. You have room for others. You’re safe, so you CAN watch out for someone and be ready in an instant when they lose their footing and almost walk off the cliff. You’re there when she’s too busy texting to notice the light has changed and she almost walks in front of a speeding bus.

What if the relationship is ending? You see her misery and know what she’s going to say before she even knows it. So you tell her. You’re sad and you know she is, too, and just can’t say it. So you tell her she is the most amazing girl EVER and you are releasing her so she can stay awesome. The point of this paragraph is not that you love yourself so much you can break up with a girl with finesse. The question I’m asking here is are you a responsible enough person to say for her what hurts her too much to say for herself? MOOS want to know you are rock solid even in the very worst of times. If you love yourself, you can handle every situation with grace and dignity because you care about yourself enough to rise to that level of intellect and maturity. The breakup itself is a test of how much you REALLY love someone. You cannot love someone that way if you don’t love yourself.

The reason why you cannot love someone in every situation if you don’t first love yourself is because if you don’t first love yourself, you have no idea even HOW to love someone else. If I had the choice of how she broke up with me, how would I want her to do it if there wasn’t absolutely NO WAY things could work out? Maybe you’d want a last date and make it awesome. Go out in style. Maybe you’d want to hear it over the phone and get it over with quick so she doesn’t see you make a total mess of yourself. Or maybe you’d want her to have just a touch of consideration for your feelings and figure out the best way for you when she dumps you. There’s no right/wrong answer here. But you take what you think would work best for you or for her if you care that much, and you turn that right around. Because you love yourself, you know how to lovingly treat someone else.

Someone locked in a cycle of self-loathing is incapable of thinking in those terms, or at least that’s how it appears to a potential partner. Therefore, patterns of self-loathing are unattractive and even repulsive and should be corrected if one intends to make friends or attract romantic partners.

All IMHO, of course. I’d love to read your thoughts on this subject. And no, I won’t request the thread be locked if it gets derailed or I don’t like it!

Good post clearly written by someone who has spent more years on this planet than I have. I especially like this part: can you send it 5 years into the past to me?

I think everyone here knows I stayed way too long in an abusive relationship (and would have NEVER gotten involved with her had I liked or respected myself but I digress). What finally made me give up for good and move on was when a friend of my mother's heard about her and told me very matter of factly "she doesn't know what love is." That was my lightbulb moment that it was NEVER going to work until she was willing to do the hard work to get better and it was obvious she wasn't.

i think if you genuinely care about someone you can be there in ways that aren't detrimental to your health/ well being. If being in a relationship with someone with terrible self esteem is too much i think you can still be their friends. You can still encourage them. You can still let them know you are rooting for them and that you wish nothing but to see them happy and succeed. I think just having people root for you can make such a difference if you are feeling low. We all feel down and we'll all at some point struggle in life. i think encouraging a person will benefit you too in the long term in unexpected ways. plus being nice to other people makes you feel like you are contributing to someone's life which i think is nice.

Oh, I totally agree. My wife has seen me at my worst, and she’s dragged me down through some awful muck over the years as well. And people change, too. You have highs and lows. We’re a forever deal, no matter what.

But at the same time, you can become accustomed to the lows to where you’re kinda glad your life sucks because if it didn’t, you wouldn’t know what to do with yourself. You’d like to get out from under it, but you just don’t know how, and maybe you try a few things once or twice and it doesn’t work the way people say it does. It gets hard on people trying to help you, too. I know a lot of the nicest people in the world who keep me at arms length because I had an ongoing tendency to complain about EV-ER-Y-THING.

It’s a good thing to want to be supportive. You SHOULD be supportive. As long as you’re careful not to get caught in the undertow of a toxic relationship, even if it’s just a friendship, absolutely.

What does "MOOS," mean? I re-scanned your post, but it appears you use an acronym without ever first spelling it out in long form.

It’s not original! lol. Member(s) Of the Opposite Sex.

My apologies...I’m used to a conventional cis-hetero dynamic, and so when I write it’s with that audience in mind. Where we see this most in L&D is specific to straight men, so don’t think that necessarily excludes any gender or orientation. I will say, though, that the LGBTQ/etc. perspectice has its own unique challenges, and so addressing other groups that I lack a shared experience with is difficult and better left to the “pros” if you catch my meaning.

The topic of self-loathing is certainly not restricted to “us” because it’s a universal problem. It’s a human problem that transcends race, religion, orientation, etc. It’s useful to keep discussion open, so don’t let my gender/orientation prefs get in the way.

Self-hate here shouldn’t be confused with the Biblical concept. The Biblical model of love/hate is rooted in action, same as what I brought up. The Biblical term “hate yourself” means you surrender your care completely to God. God works through people to take care of each other. So “hate thyself” really means allow everyone else to take care of your needs while you, in term, live a life of service to others. It’s exactly what I’m talking about except with a rational surrender behind it.

What I mean by “love yourself” isn’t in conflict with the Biblical opposite. Most people know what they need to do to survive, therefore they won’t deny themselves food, water, and safety. If you don’t know what it means to take care of yourself for just the bare basics, it’s difficult to understand the needs of others since others need basically the same things you need. The ability to meet someone on their level is crucial to cultivating an attraction.

Not trying to go all theological or be pushy, but these concepts really are thousands of years old, which only underscores how important they are now given the kinds of discussions we’re seeing in L&D.

Good post. Self-loathing is repulsive in the context of dating just like abusive behaviour is repulsive, because self-loathing is a kind of abuse if you think about it. It usually involves being crappy to oneself in the same way an abusive partner is crappy. A person who hates themselves has an internal monologue (or sometimes an external one, if they have a lot of external negative self-talk) that is much like that of an emotionally abusive person. A person who hates themselves talks to themselves like bullies talk to those they are abusing: "You're useless and ugly and awful and no one will ever love or value you." If that's how you treat yourself, people are going to avoid you for fear you might treat everyone the same way.

People who are self-loathing don't treat themselves with care and value and dignity, so it's hard to imagine them treating someone else with care and value and dignity in a romantic relationship. People think you're not capable of being caring and having dignity if you don't demonstrate those things in your treatment of yourself.

Also, a self-loathing person is a drain to be around. Even if you aren't constantly emotionally propping them up and reassuring them they are not awful, you have to listen to them whine about themselves and how much they suck and that gets old and tiresome. Who wants that?

There are many practical reasons why self-loathing works against you if you're trying to date and working on loving yourself so you are more prepared for a loving relationship just makes practical sense.

Gotcha. No wonder I wasn't familiar with it. When reading this forum, unless otherwise specified I assume the thread topics are heterosexual. I just hadn't seen/used that acronym before.

The whole loving yourself bit is super key, I agree. Back when I was horribly depressed and anxious I avoided any possibility of a relationship because I didn't want to bring anyone down like an anchor. Now I'm pretty whole and balanced and more open to the possibility of a relationship at some time in my life, but I still avoid them/don't intentionally seek one out because I truly feel I'm best suited to pursue solo pursuits in this life while loving friends, family, and enjoying the sex life I have thanks to being a fairly fit gay man. I think a relationship might distract from my bigger goals in life. But who knows, if it's perfect and it happens I'll go with it - but I could have never even considered that line of thinking if I didn't feel whole, balanced, and capable of loving myself.

Self loathing attracts abusive partners. It’s been me for my whole adult life. Don’t go there.

If you can’t respect yourself, you need to work on that first.

If your self respect is governed by whether or not people will date you, that’s another thing you need to work on.

Not easy, but necessary.

Yep!

IMO people should feel not only whole, but like they have extra to contribute to someone else' life vs. feeling like you have a void within you that you're trying to fill via someone else' energy. That's a recipe for being an emotional/energy vampire of sorts and there's just ZERO chance I'd be willing to enter a relationship with someone and do that to them. No way, no how. I don't understand how anyone who feels such a hole within themselves can stomach the idea of trying to fill it by leaching away someone else' energy. It just feels SO wrong to me that I'd rather remain single forever than feel responsible for bringing someone else down a notch.

Holes have to be filled with other stuff. It’s the only way to survive.

Yep! Some get filled with self love, others with others for sexual gratification.

How would one work on that?

Self administered written Cognitive Behavioural Therapy would be a good option, IMO. If someone has negative or disrespectful thoughts about themselves, then CBT is a great tool to analyze & refute them in order to realize that you're not nearly as bad as you think and do in fact possess many positive qualities. This was quite helpful to me when I needed it most & I haven't bothered to do any written stuff since that time ~6 years ago, but I am able to mentally catch my thoughts and correct them here and there as needed with the same set of tools and it's sufficient. I'm not perfect, but I'm good enough. I may not be attractive to nor loved by the people I've been most attracted to, but I'm attractive to enough others & am definitely loved by others. My self respect levels are decent enough.. these days I just need to focus more and more on keeping to a clean diet & doing more exercise as I haven't been respecting myself quite as well as I ought to lately. Ups and downs, but yeah, CBT is a great way to learn to start to have more self respect and I'd recommend that people read the book "Feeling Good," by Dr. David Burns in order to learn how to do that.

Find something that’s worth liking about yourself that isn’t related to sex and dating. Make friends. Work hard. Get a skill others don’t have. You have to actually believe in yourself, not convince yourself that you’re believing in yourself.

I got voted employee of the month today after a long time of long hours and complete dedication. It’s really nice when you do something that’s worthy of your own respect.

I've defiantly had self-esteem problems & self-loathing when it came to getting in a relationship & I still don't think my self-esteem is very high but I was always doing my very best to work on myself. I WANTED to improve what I could but was stuck due to my living situation that I was trapped in due to physical & mental disabilities. I was very attracted to women who had self-esteem problems & were self-loathers but even they weren't willing to give me half a chance romantically. My current girlfriend does NOT love herself cuz of depression issues. She grew up in a town where her family was treated like garbage because they didn't have money & Cass cant work due to physical & mental disabilities & feels like society sees her as a parasite. Cass became attracted to me after reading lots of my post in this forum because she thought I might be able to understand her issues & struggles. I think I do understand better than anyone else & she understands mine better than anyone. My self-esteem has improved alot being with her but I still have issues. The times I feel the worse are when she's blaming me for her problems cuz of her depression, she's easily frustrated & takes things out on me when she's in a very bad place sometimes. Most of the time we get along OK & she does alot to reassure me when she's in a better mood & I do my very best to reassure her that I want to stay with her cuz she thinks I'd be better off without her which I know is NOT true. I know this stuff isn't exactly healthy but we are both better people with each other & are both trying to work on our issues as best we can. No realtionship is perfect & the perfect person for me is an imperfect one.
I don't get why self-loathers & people with poor self-esteem don't pair up with others like them. They'll have some problems but there is NO such thing as a perfect realtionship & they can work together on their issues.