How important is the "Risk factor" when guys ask girls out?

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Do you take particular note if a guy's behaviour suggests:

-Avoiding Rejection
-Risk-aversion
-Playing it Safe
-Plan-ahead personality
-Slow and careful rather than rash and impulsive

Are these important factors?
-Level of knowledge: The information you've given them through direct communication or body language basically indicators of potential interest vs the guy taking blind leap of faith. Basically the quantity of existing "clues".
-Speed of their response: Are they careful in general or are they impatient like acting right away without thinking.
-Predictability in their response: Their responses matching what you expected.
-Intellegence:Is it best if it's similar to you? Lower? Higher?
- Social Savvy: Obviously poor social skills are bad but ideally do you want them to be on par with you or superior?
-Type A or Type B personality: I've tried learning on my own and I would theorize that Type-A(competitive, impatient, aggressive) appears to be preferred, perhaps Type A taken to a fault may be the most preferred.
-Subtle nature or direct: I typically never state to a girl that I am attracted to them, I want to first see some positive signs and until then I act neutral(AS helps with this because I typically act the same all the time). I view myself as needing to learn more first and so I try not to feel attraction strongly as I view it as 90% of the time there will be no chance, the rest being a varying but very small chance("let's see if this guy will be impressive"). However I think girls pick up on this and select me out as a result.

I have a sort of "Science" mindset in that I prefer to observe, learn and take careful approach where ever possible. I try to have my actions be supported by reasoning and observations. But what I observe is that it appears that I give off bad cues and would possibly be better to do the opposite.

Does being reserved convey being afraid?
Does a slow careful nature convey weakness?

I don't think the "Risk Factor" is important at all. However, I would strongly prefer that a guy I'm interested in asks me out because it takes the burden off of my shoulders

I have been thinking that it may have been best to have defined it simply rather than just wall of text.

It's simply the idea of the guy who is interested in a girl taking a chance and risking rejection. Low risk scenario is if the girl makes it really obvious that she is interested in the guy like flirting, asking if he is single, mentioning that she is single, etc. Basically the girls actions removing the risk for the guy.

Opposite scenario is the girl being interested in a guy but offering no clear signs of it or perhaps even showing signs of the opposite, in order to see if the guy would ask her out anyways. Playing hard to get, what books like The Rules say to do aka what I feel is female version of PUA. Asking the girl out is essentially a guess for the guy, they are basically risking >90% rejection since there are no signs to believe that the girl is interested in him, or can even be perceivable signs suggesting that she is not. Basically the girl's actions ensuring there is risk of rejection from the guy's point of view.

The risk dynamic is the question of whether the guy tries to seek information first to tell him if he should ask her out or if he just tries to do so without information by being brave or doing the PUA routine.

I feel like I most likely have to keep my interest in a woman completely hidden as if she picks up on it she will then make it more difficult for me.

So it doesn't necessarily matter if he took a chance(as in, decided to ask you out even when there aren't clear indicators that you are in fact interested.Indicators that would make him feel you will probably say yes)? It would not be problematic in of itself if you sense a guy is seeking to find indicators of interest?

My tendency is to want to observe for such indicators first before I give any indicators myself or even think about taking conversation in that direction. Like trying to make opportunities for the woman to give indicators of interest.

But part of me wonders if this isn't the best way as it isn't "brave", if women may be aware of it as risk avoidant behaviour and if they might then as a result purposely decide against showing interest. It also takes time and often likely requires multiple conversations at different times. Within one conversation I do notice small signs but always there is room left for plausible deniability and my gut feeling is this is deliberate as in they might be thinking "I won't give a certain sign. I will show only a slight, ambiguous sign and let's see if he will take a chance".

The root of the behaviour is my disbelief of the whole PUA thing and not accepting the "numbers game". I feel that if I were female even with Aspergers I would easily detect the PUAs and would feel it is compensating for a lack of actual value. Acting on nothing(in terms of evidence of interest) would suggest to me either lack of inteligence or that they likely try nearly everyone indiscriminately.

I think the natural state of how courting would work without people trying to basicaly game the system is that both genders would give each other signs and signals of attraction.

If the guy is attractive it would be seen a positive risk taking.

If the guy is unattractive, it would be seen he's being a fool and creep.

I agree for the absolute cases.

If the guy is definitely very desirable it will definitely be seen in a more positive light. I think women won't hide signs of interest in case like this where they'd definitely be dating up in terms of looks, status, charisma etc or just simply very compatible(he's her "type"). I view it that a guy's level of attractiveness to women is made up of multiple factors. It will definitely be seen in a negative light if the guy is severely lacking in any key factors basically if big red flags are present. Ie he looks like the Hunchback of Notre Dame or Ugliest Man Alive from TW3, has a child's personality, no job still supported by parents-not independent, has severe disabilities, severe obesity, etc. Any of the above is going to fully exclude a guy from romantic interest, I would say 99% of the time being a safe estimate.

But what about us who fall somewhere in between 10/10 & 0/10? It does seem as though there is evaluation in the moment done by a girl when a guy tries to "make a move". I wonder if the guy "taking a chance" holds importance in cases where it isn't already super obvious from the get go? Cases where she might not be sure at first.

Part of the problem is that women think they're beong obvious when they are being incredibly subtle. They don't think it's a risk. They think it's obvious that they want you to ask them out.

They are pleased when you are a mind reader... to you that may translate as "taking a risk".

Sorry was that too cynical.

That does make sense. Any way to mitigate this or is it essentially the same as though they simply are deliberately refusing to give any signs of interest?

Both.

A friend told me that she was at a party and was talking to this guy. When the conversation was over and the guy moved away one of her friends came up to her and said, "he seems to like you. You should let him know you're interested." My friend turned her nose up and said, "no. If he's interested he can work for it."

So yes sometimes it is deliberate.

Other times the girl is thinking that she is being obvious by spending time with the guy, but he still has no clue that she likes him any more than just a friend.

So it's difficult to tell.

Other times the woman is just not interested and there's no way of knowing because of how the women in my previous examples act.

So you've got to take the plunge I'd say.

Recently someone asked me for my number after meeting me for the fist time. I liked that. He never sent me a message so I got in touch with him because I was/am interested.

If I've learned anything in this life, you snooze you lose. If you are interested in someone just make an effort. They can only say no.

How can it be mitigated? I am highly risk-averse, I hate even games of chance like poker/other card games or any gambling. My belief is that these are inevitably net-loss activities, long-term I believe these will lead to loss of money barring unusual occurrences so the sensation is like throwing money away or otherwise harming oneself.

It's unpleasant to try to change this unless there can be no other way. I am tuned out of the traditional High School style popularity contests and pursuing women on a pure numbers basis feels like a similar concept to HS popularity. That is to say, trying to campaign to convince everyone that I am awesome and better than other people.

My approach to friends was to focus on people where there's clear potential for it. Like if we've got common interests, similarities, naturally inclination to like and accept each other. Archetypal HS approach is force it with everyone, focus on personality ethic over character ethic and not necessarily stick to the truth.

My gut feeling though is that having too strong of moral sensibilities about this kind of stuff is exactly the thing that makes guys lose appeal. In any rate, I am trying to determine if this is at all a worthwhile thing to pursue for me or if it's better ignored.

That sounds like possibly she's not at all interested but is after an ego boost? Or does this happen even if she is very attracted to the guy?

What does she mean by "work for it"? My understanding is that pretty much all the time, for both genders if there simply isn't any existing attraction you generally can't change their mind to a significant degree. Like if you view their level of attraction towards a person as score out of 10 where 5=decent there won't be any possibility of changing their mind if by default they're rating the other person as like a 3 or less. They might make you view them slightly more positively but very unlikely to make a guy go from not dating material to becoming dating material.

Am I correct to assume she wants him to ask her out simply for the sake of it(and most likely no chance of her saying yes) to feel validation/superiority/ego boost? Or would him taking a risk be a boost in her eyes? Or would it now be futile because he did not do so right away when they just met?



Perhaps just have to try my chances with every girl I am remotely interested in? Ask for her number almost right away?

What would work better for me(or perhaps just for my Aspergers quirk(s)/personality) would be having some kind of "strategy" to help allow them to show interest through initially neutral conversation.

Would it be better to shift my view into alignment with PUA's Numbers game? Whereby some of them say it's a very low percentage thing and there's very little we can do to influence it in anyway(outside of superficial stuff like peacocking, faking/exaggerating some behaviours and hiding others, etc. >90% of it is about what God gave you.) so best thing is to try with as many women as possible. They advise best is to attempt number closing(specific aim for them giving their phone number which is 1st step of possibility of dating) hundreds to thousands of times in a year speaking absolutely literally no exaggerating. That's why they advocate trying whenever possible to pick up women everywhere and say whatever you have to say to best try to do so, truthful or not. In any rate, I am trying to determine if this is at all a worthwhile thing to pursue for me or if it's better ignored.

Goodness me. That sounds exhausting. I can understand why you don't want to do that.

I do not know what the answer is.

A bit more info on the man who asked for my number. As soon as I met him I knew that we would get along. He's just obviously weird. I like that. We talked a bit and had good rapport. We have similar interests. Maybe I am very obviously weird and that's what he liked about me. I haven't asked. I really don't think I gave out any signals. But there was more than just blind chance with it, we are similar people. So it's not a case of fire out your number like bullets from a machine gun until you get a taker, I think if you get on with someone, then yes, ask for her number.

My female friend is one of these women who believes that if a guy really likes you he will want to talk to you and ask for your number. She's very passive. She doesn't play with guys or mess them around. She is unassuming. Unfortunately this means that she only gets asked out by over-confident jerks who treat her badly. Many women have this silly idea that men should always, always make the first move. I get berated for being more active than them. Well, not berated, chided jokingly. One of my other friends says that when a man likes you "You just know" and shouldn't have to go out of your way to make something happen. Ok, so she's see me try and make things happen in places where nothing was ever going to happen, but I feel like at least I tried. She thinks I wasted my time and energy.

I do not like the passive approach for myself because I feel like I will be waiting around forever. However, I have found that even with being a little proactive there just isn't ever anything there between me and any of the men I've ever been interested in. They've all been great guys, but we've had no rapport. I'm just too odd. I think they often find me pretentious, and I don't mean to be, I just like what I like and what I like is not mainstream.

Rapport is important. If you don't feel like you're having an enjoyable conversation there's no point in trying to take it further. I've tried that. It's like when gears crunch when you select the wrong gear whilst driving a stick shift.

Recently I've met some new people. They are communicative and interesting and I get along with them like I've never been able to before. I'm not the odd one out trying to be a "better person" a "more outgoing" person to get them to like me. I've been myself, and amazingly, they like me. It's surreal and I keep expecting to wake up.

I feel sad that for years I was struggling with who I am. I was upset because I was never good enough. I was always thinking "I need to change this and I need to change that and then people will like me".

Finally after living over a quarter of a century and a bit... I have met people like me. I got lucky. Although I have probably knocked the sharp edges off my personality so it's not completely blind luck. The chances I took were forcing myself to meet new people. I got a lot of misery from that strategy. I kept meeting people who thought I was too odd or annoying. I didn't fit in. But I didn't decide to become a hermit. I kept moving on. I kept meeting new people, to the point where older women would say to me, "why are you running from your problems?" or "why don't you just try to get along with the people you already know", it was always my fault. Oh and this wasn't a new person every week. It's more like I meet new people once or twice a year.

And I'm waffling. My point is, a lot in life is trial and error. You have to accept that some of the things you try will fail. But you have to pick yourself up and keep trying.

Will look again at your post and possibly address more later. feeling tired at the moment.

And it's doubly exhausting because IMO if I just act fake all the time, lie all the time why should I expect there to be any real compatibility from anyone I do attract with this behaviour since what I'm offering in that case isn't the person I actually am. Just feels like no-win scenario, only potential benefit being to help solve the no experience issue.

My observations about "the dating game" suggest being myself may lead to being walled out so it's hard to know what to do.

This is something I very strongly agree with. I would really struggle to justify taking these risks if simple conversation isn't even enjoyable. And if the girl's strategy happens to be to play it so cool that there's no signs at all of interest and simple conversation is difficult on first interactions that in itself may constitute red flag for me. Basic interactions shouldn't be extremely cumbersome(which would be saying a lot, to be considered cumbersome by a guy with Aspergers).


Part of my Aspergers is being obsessive about details so I always want to look for learning/knowledge to have an influence on the situation beyond just random chance. 100% random means possibility of 100% failed outcomes over course of lifetime. I also have a bunch of stuff competing for my time so it makes me stingy with my time. Martial arts, weights, video games, anime and new job soon.

The main thing I factored in with a girl offline was that I knew her alittle bit, she seemed nice towards me, single(or I thought she'd might be), no kids, & not much older than me. I pretty much asked most every girl out who met this criteria since my 1st realtionship ended at 20 & I had no luck offline. I also made a move with pretty much any women online who I was friends with who met that criteria too & I had no luck except on this forum but my current girlfriend messaged me 1st.

As someone who has been through countless humiliations throughout his life via misunderstandings (both dating and non-dating scenarios), rejection is something I do not look forward to.
Also, I start to obsess over the fact that the girl that rejected me will spread the word to others with something like "that gross, weird guy tried to ask me out! Would you believe the nerve he has?"

That potentially comes into play if social factors are present like were many people watching when you ask her out and was it the center of attention? Commenting like that might be understandable if 20 people watched and she felt embarrassed. But conversely I think it is a sign of bad character if she brings it up to others on her own even when no one else was there, if you asked her out privately instead of in the middle of a crowd/party as the center of attention.

The latter case I write off as an act motivated by irrational & disproportionate hate, if I had tried to follow common courtesy. Getting asked out is something that they should expect to happen tens of times to hundreds of times if they are normal in terms of attraction when compared to the majority of other women as in not extremely low attractiveness or extremely high. Most of the women I find attractive would be considered average or somewhat more physically fit than average. I don't like the "model look" as they register to me as like kids therefore not attractive, being somewhat overweight is actually a lot more attractive than stereotypical model to me. It is hard to define but I believe it would be including those who fall under BMI's normal range or if they are physically fit they will be "overweight" since BMI does not account for muscle. Those who would be notably less attractive to me most likely would fall under obese, morbidly obese or severely underweight where there is a notable increase in risk for related health problems. To be honest I am a bit confused by it lately as apparently BMI no longer distinguishes between male or female.


For me my obsession is gathering data/finding patterns/finding rules that govern a situation. I like RPGs because they often reflect my kind of thought process.

I do not tend to act in the absence of information and reasoning supporting said action. Asking someone out when I have no information goes against my tendencies as I feel that I can learn things in observation and that asking her out will deny this.


I think I have worded the topic title poorly due to the character limit. I had meant to ask:

How Important Is The "Element of Risk" as an evaluatory factor when a girl is asked out by a guy? How much does this potentially factor into yes or no?

Do they analyze the level of risk as most likely assessed by the guy based on what he knows, or should know based on statements and/or behaviours by the woman. Do they make deductions such as "He's into me but he's backing down/chicken" or "he's stepping up to the challenging situation"?

I have a strategy centered mindset so I wondered if women may apply a similar mindset as for most women this is the #1 most important goal in life, forming a favorable relationship with the optimal guy.

I totally relate to this. That's why I don't ask anyone out anymore either.

I also don't like to be a bother. I know that I need to show clear signs of interest when I am interested in someone, but I don't want to be the clueless freak chasing someone that all the other people with better social skills can clearly see isn't interested in me.

In short... No... we don't think like that at all.

Bottom line. If a woman is into you she will say yes if you ask her out. If she's not into you she will say no.

Just taking the risk to ask her out won't make you any more attractive to her than before you asked her out if she was never attracted to you in the first place.

If I think someone is into me and he doesn't ask me out I then re-evaluate the situation and think, "oh well, he must not fancy me after all." And move on. Not because he didnt take a "risk", but because I can't waste my time on someone who doesn't seem to be interested in taking things further.