More Thought on Incels.

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We’re not just instinctual animals…..there’s more complexity to “human nature” than that.

Indeed we are complex creatures. That's just it.

Understanding other humans helps us understand rejection and move on.

Most men look average in the eyes of other men. In the eyes of women, there is a cut-off between average and ugly men that doesn't align the same as yours. Men you find average may legitimately be perceived as ugly to most women. This isn't women's fault, it's biology. Perhaps men are hardwired to find ourselves more attractive to the opposite sex than we really are, which includes thinking ugly men are average. Again, not our call to make.

We're not talking Adonis vs. the Elephant Man. We're talking a group of guys who all look average to us, but a sizeable minority of them may be in the ugly-camp for most women. Again, biology and ToM differences between the sexes.


Of course not. But you have to be passable. As a man, your perceptions of what's passable lookswise in another man may not align with the average woman's perception of passable.

Incels believe they're rejected for their looks, reinforce it in their echo chambers and consistently ignore any evidence against it (like all the average-to-bad-looking men in happy relationships).

In my country, the saying is, a man should be more handsome than an average monkey.
And another: każda potwora znajdzie swojego amatora - each monster finds their devotee.
Both work quite well IRL.

Well as far as the notion goes that incel men even though they may look no worse than guys, average to below average women are already with, but women see them as less looking; does this mean that incels have no hope if they try to up their game and their only shot at sex is hookers for the rest of their lives?

The incel obsession with sex is what ruins their chances for relationships; so yes, hookers are likely their best option.

Looks are not everything; personality (or lack thereof) counts for a lot.

Is it because incel men may have autism or other social disabilities that prevent the personality from succeeding women as well, or do women value the looks more? Like for example, if a guy was socially awkward or inept, would a woman still want him if he was goodlooking. Or would a woman prefer the guy had social and seduction skills and be average looking?

It is because incel men often openly display resentment and hatred, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against women and sexually active people.

They perceive women as "gatekeepers" to personal fulfilment through having sex, and resent the fact that women are in full possession of their own bodies and can freely choose with whom they will and will not have sex.

The idea that a woman to whom they are attracted may be having sex with someone else is the insult of insults to them, even when they have never met the woman to whom they are attracted.

Incels (the violent ones, anyway) are sick, twisted individuals who have a distorted (if not false) perception of what women's purpose should be.

We have a few people on WP who express some "Incel' ideas.

But none go as far as what Fnord wrote.

I believe the paramount problem with Incels is that certain people, frustrated with their lack of romantic success, read some idiot theory on the Internet, become the victim of "confirmation bias," and espouse that idiot theory to the exclusion of what is actually TRUE.

Basically, all this Incel, MGTOW, Red Pill, etc. stuff is garbage. It serves to keep the adherent of these ideologies from achieving romance.

If a guy was socially awkward or inept, but above-average looking, many women will still find him sexually attractive. He may have a hard time KEEPING a long-term relationship because of his poor social skills. But if his looks are well above passable, he'll have no problem attracting women for sex. I already provided an example of an above-average looking Aspie who gets tons of offers for sex from women. I think you really don't absorb too much information that's posted. You're a little slow or really narrow in what you chose to absord. That's okay.

Now, if a man is average looking, he may have to work harder. However, if he has good social skills, he can probably maintain a relationship longer than a really good looking guy without social skills.

If a man is too ugly to even be given a chance for either sex or a relationship, then all the social skills in the world won't help him. A man doesn't have to be really good looking. But if he's totally ugly (IN THE EYES OF WOMEN), and doesn't pass the basic attraction test, then he doesn't even have a chance, regardless of personality or self-improvement.

Last edited by ezbzbfcg2 on 15 Sep 2021, 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

When someone says "I really want a relationship, or at least a one night stand, but no women seem interested," they are INCEL. Involuntarily Celibate. Nothing to do with their personal beliefs. By definition, those who don't want to be celibate but are so involuntarily are INCEL.

As far as MGTOW, my understanding (and maybe I'm wrong) is that a lot of them aren't involuntarily celibate. They were able to attract a mate, but became bitter after a brutal divorce. This is not to say ALL women are evil. But if an individual man really was taken to the cleaners by an individual woman (lost everything, can't see his kids, has his wages garnished), then his life experience is something we can't know unless we ourselves have lived through it. I try to empathize with such people (even though it's not my personal experience). You can't know what someone is going through unless you've been through it yourself. I try to have empathy. This has nothing to do with women (or men) as a whole. But if someone has truly experienced these horrible things, to blame them for experiencing something we can't fathom because it hasn't happened to us seemed very cruel.

What do you find to be "garbage" about these theories? Yes, some very good men have been destroyed by some very petty ex-wives. Some ugly guys can't get a foot in the door, regardless of all the self improvement they're told to undertake. What is the "garbage" aspect of these theories? It seems like you lack ToM. Because your experience was X, you assume it must apply to all. You lack empathy, or even an attempt at empathy.

Maybe I'm mistaken. Why are you calling these things "garbage."

An NT can call this website and Aspeger's syndrome "garbage" because it doesn't affect him and he can't comprehend it, and assumes all have the same opportunities as he does. It doesn't make the Autistc experience any less real for an actual autist, even if an NT never sees this side of life. How is what you're saying any different?

As one of the few NTs who inhabit this forum, what is an "autistic experience" to you?

I hear people claim there's some type of "group think" that aspies have that NTs will never understand....ok

but these same people then say "If you've met one individual with autism, you've met one individual with autism."

So which one is it? You can't have it both ways....

I think they're garbage because they're counterproductive. And because they lead to a cynical view of things, which is not reflective of the truth. And there are people who adhere to these notions lock, stock, and barrel, and do nasty things as a result.

Sure, you have women who have taken guys "to the cleaners." I've had that happen to me, too. But it doesn't mean one has to adopt a defensive posture towards women all the time, and assume the worst all the time.

One contributing factor to incel culture (specifically, the belief of many incel men that they are physically ugly -- even though many of them aren't really that ugly) may be Instagram.

Here's a Wall Street Journal article, posted to Twitter, on how Facebook knows Instagram is toxic for teen girls: "Facebook's own in-depth research shows a significant teen mental-health issue that the company plays down in public.."

This Twitter thread also mentions that "Teen boys aren’t immune. In a deep dive Facebook’s researchers conducted into mental health in 2019, they found that 14% of boys in the U.S. said Instagram made them feel worse about themselves."

Hey, the self-fulfilling prophecies that I've adopted as a result of the ideology I chose to embrace that tells me I'm ugly and all my problems are other people's faults because Chad and Stacy are disgusted by me can't be questioned. That's my experience and not just the ideology of a community I found online.