Sexist men getting married and having children

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Most of my detractors in my daily life think women need to be subservient to men and shouldn't drive or talk on cellphones as well as shouldn't stand up for themselves I keep seeing getting married and having children. I don't share their views but despite my best efforts, I can't even get a coffee date. I refuse to change to be like them but at the same time I hate how being an individual hasn't translated to success but only dead ends and failure.

I'm not sure truly being an individual can lead to success. It could probably make you happy, though. You sound so different from the people in your area, that maybe comparing yourself to them isn't helpful.

I am very different than the majority of people who live in my area. The four major groups would be:

1) General Bible Belters who live in both the city and the rural areas. They generally proclaim themselves to be Southern Baptists, vote Republican, listen to only mainstream music, and tend to be the most affluent people in the area.

2) Rednecks and the worst kind you will ever see. They drink until they pass out or vomit all over the place, smoke until they smell like cigarettes, urinate on the ground, love only country music, speed on the road dangerously, harm innocent animals, and get in fights in public (Especially at Wal-Mart) over stupid things. They are also extremely racist, sexist, and homophobic. They live in either the country but still shop at Walmart or are homeless and can be sen hanging around the public library doing drug deals.

3) Hyper religious people who are scared of the world and think humanity needs to turn to God or we are all going to Hell, even themselves.

4) Hip hoppers who, obviously, love rap music. Ironically, they hate rednecks but share a lot in common with them. They both drink and smoke excessively, treat women poorly, shop at Wal-Mart, get in fights over stupid things, call anyone they don't like a "fa***t", and disregard reading.

Last edited by Marknis on 18 Nov 2018, 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wow, a lot of anti-Wal-Mart bias.

(Don’t worry, I don’t like WM either)

Wal-Mart is Shangri-La to rednecks and hip hoppers. It also reflects their shallow and cheap mindsets.

I used to hope I would present a new voice to the Bible Belt but that voice was shouted down.

Why do you measure success vs. failure in terms of how you compare with other people?

The individualist is unimpressed with the ideas and actions and others for their own sake. I discovered that I enjoy running. I don’t need to break into the top 5 or top 3 in my division to enjoy the sport. It’s non-competitive. So comparing myself with elite runners who earn their living collecting prize money is the last thing on my mind—assuming it even registers in my mind at all. My satisfaction comes from setting new PR’s. The only person I compete with is myself.

What I do after a race is study the stats. How did I rank? Did I set a new PR, or do I need to do some work? I gauge how I SHOULD be doing by looking at the average times of athletes in my division. Based on that, I can look at next year’s race and say, “at this rate, I could probably beat this guy or that guy.” Then I start making plans to beat that guy and train accordingly.

Thing is, I’m not jealous of better runners. I’m impressed by their abilities. I ask myself whether their abilities are within my reach and what they do to train (I’m on the Hal Higdon Intermediate 2 marathon program despite never having run a marathon before). I can’t focus on speed work yet, but the time for that will come once I complete my first marathon. I admire and value the abilities of other athletes because I enjoy the sport. I’m not sitting on the sideline crying because I’m the one not running. Similarly, running stats is not a comparison game. It’s a part of racing, like shoe shopping, trying out energy gels and salt tabs, and experimenting with different clothing and other gear/products. If I had no interest in it or got no enjoyment out of it, I wouldn’t be out on the road. If I looked at it in terms of how bad I got beat, I certainly wouldn’t keep doing it. Something that made me feel that bad just isn’t worth it.

And I don’t really care what other runners think of me either. A friend of mine I race with sometimes has a 5k pace under 7min. He was talking to someone else about me while I was doing an hour on the track saying that I was “a machine.” I love watching this guy run, and he says he’s impressed with me. So yeah, that makes me feel good. But that’s not why I do it. If he said that I sucked, I’d just keep running anyway.

Which brings me back to my original point. If individualism is what you’re going for, then how other guys do with relationships cannot matter to you. In fact, if you’re a consistent individualist, what other women think can’t matter to you either. The individualist, or egoist, can only be concerned with living up to his own capacity or potential. You cannot force men to admire and respect you. You can’t force women to find you attractive. If men HAPPEN to see what you’re doing and want to support you for their own benefit, that’s their choice. If women are falling all over you to win your attention, that’s their choice. Whether you seek to associate with certain men for YOUR own purposes is your choice. Whether you approach a girl you’re interested in is YOUR choice. But don’t make this about other people for their own sake. Make it about what YOU want.

Be your own awesome. For me, that means running and music and my kids. For you that might mean anime, heavy metal, or whatever... It doesn’t matter, just put everything into that. If a woman comes along who shares your values, GREAT. You might get a gf along the way. If not, so what? You cannot live your life for another person, not even a girl, and you cannot ask her to live her life for you. Relationships form when two people experience pleasure (on their own, individual terms) together.

Because you can’t live for another person, nor can you ask another person live for you, pursuing a mate as your source of happiness is an exercise in futility. Several people on here have tried telling you not to try to get a gf, but it seems the answers why have been unsatisfying. This is the answer, right here. You have no control over whether someone will ever even want you. And if you are an individualist, you don’t care, anyway. If it happens, be grateful and accept it. If it never happens, be grateful and accept it. Be the best you possibly can at everything you do in the meantime and base your happiness and satisfaction on THAT rather than those things you cannot nor should not have control over.

The frustration you are feeling regarding others, aside from what I already said, is that redneck men really are egoists more often than not. They lack the sophistication to express it, but that’s basically it. They don’t really care what women think about them. They can say whatever they want and it doesn’t matter.

I can’t answer for what women see in them. But they see something of value in these men. That’s what you’re missing. These women enjoy what they’re getting from these guys. It might look as though they are abusive, but I think there’s more to it and you’re missing the big picture. The women you’re talking about want these men, and the bits you see as mistreatment aren’t enough to scare them away. They value these men and don’t care about whatever else is going on. They’ll put up with whatever because they feel the men are worth it.

Maybe they should value other things. But that’s not a judgment call we get to make. They have to figure that out on their own. If that is what it required in relationships in the culture within which you live, singlehood is much, MUCH better for you.

This issue is becoming more and more personal to me because I see my oldest son going through the same kind of thing. I’ve tried teaching him how to get along with classmates, form relationships, etc. It’s causing friction with his teachers, too. He understands that influencing people and making friends means taking an active interest in them. What I failed to communicate is this originates from a love of self. I unwittingly trained him for altruism, and it’s killing him. So I explained that the things he loves most are important and that he shouldn’t be anyone but himself. And if his classmates reject him for that, they DO NOT DESERVE him. If they don’t want him and what he could bring to their lives, then he should be quiet, stay closer to his teachers, be a friend to the younger kids, and work more towards impressing older people who can teach him good things and open doors of opportunities for him. He still doesn’t understand that his classmates mean very little in the long run, but we’re working on that. We’re beginning to focus on things that will build his self-esteem. For the most part, he’s getting better.

I think individualism is the way to go. I’m going through a phase when I’m realizing my work has benefitted others more than it has been worth to me in cost. I’m looking at making some BIG changes in the next year. But I can’t keep going the way I have. I’m not happy. I want to get back to what made me happiest, and too much concern for what everyone else has expected from me has put too many things on hold or just flat forgotten. So stick with focussing on yourself and doing good things. You can’t go wrong with anything that improves your health, mind, mood, and sense of well-being. You can’t go wrong with hobbies, learning new things, reading non-fiction, etc. I mean...insert whatever special interest you have in here. Earning your independence—also good. Doing your best at the library—VERY good, and productive. You get the idea. If you want to go the individualist route, I think you’re on the right track. But do understand that’s a focus on yourself. That means your happiness is contingent on YOU, not friends or romantic partners.

Best wishes....

Is this a subtle attempt at saying "nice guys finish last"?

As an individual in this collective society, would you even want to be with most people? No, so it will take a lot more effort and time to be able to find that rare person.

Who? Me? Depends on how you look at it.

My one goal when running is to never finish dead last. And I never have. When I used to keep pace with my wife and she was dealing with injuries and other problems, yeah, I’d come in last in my division, but never last overall. The last few races I was more concerned with keeping up with the average male runner. I’d find that there was a pack of runners ahead of me, pack behind me, and pretty much it was just me stuck in the middle by myself. So now my goal has shifted to wanting to be just slightly better than average.

It’s a living metaphor for how I see myself and life in general. I don’t care what other runners think of me, and they don’t care what I think of them. Elite runners, recreational runners, run-walkers, and walkers all share the same road. We are all equal at the starting line. Where you go from there is up to you. But you won’t ever approach the podium if you don’t earn your place.

Now change the words a little:

I don’t care what other guys think of me, and they don’t care what I think of them. The wealthy and the physically attractive share the same dating pool with the poor, the uggos, and disabled. We are all equal when we first start out building relationships. Where you go from there is up to you. But you won’t ever get a gf or a wife if you don’t work to get her.

Using running as a metaphor, take “nice guys finish last.” For the majority of marathoners out there, if you look at stats as being the primary motivation for running, you’ve missed the whole point. Elite runners make their living doing this. There are only 3 men and 3 women usually in a fields of potentially thousands of runners that are going home with money in their pockets. Those of us who know we have a chance of making it to the podium will go for it (my wife and I both placed 3rd in our division back in my hometown, and we didn’t really expect it. It was a small 5k, not as much participation as we’re used to). But the majority of runners know they don’t have a chance, especially marathoners.

If you don’t have a shot at the podium, why run? The point isn’t that “nice guys finish last.” It’s that they FINISH at all.

I was responding to Marknis in individualist terms. I’m leaning towards the Objectivist view of ethical egoism. If you want to be an individualist, you cannot live your life on any terms besides your own. You don’t care what other guys think of you. You don’t think of what women think. If all women see you as an @$$hole or a creep, that’s not your problem. That’s all on them. Your existence is solely focussed on yourself.

If other people want to be a part of that, RATIONALLY you understand you can do more with people than without them. Rationally, you know that you can accomplish more married with children than single. That’s just common sense. That’s just logical. But you cannot be so concerned with others that you sacrifice any part of your identity. If you are so disgusted with yourself and feel you’d be happier making a change, it’s rational to make the change.

But you don’t change because someone said you have to have friends or a romantic partner. Why have friends? Why have romantic partners? What’s the point? Do you even know why you should have them? Do you know what it will cost you to have them? Are they worth the cost to you? Money, time, energy...friends and lovers don’t come for free. Do you have something of value in exchange for their love? Have they done anything to earn yours?

The “nice guys finish last” mentality is based on dating/relationships as a zero-sum game. Marathoners don’t look at the race as win/lose. Professionals DO, because they expect to get paid for showing up. “But don’t they still have to run?” Yes, of course. Race event promoters look good when they attract pro athletes, which is why the prizes are so big at high-stakes events. Elite runners are pretty sure they’ll win, and they usually do. For them, it’s just a matter of showing up. For professionals, it’s a zero sum game because if they can’t make the podium, they’re out entry fees, plane tickets, and hotel rates.

Most marathoners don’t care about that. They will pay hundreds and thousands of dollars because they enjoy the experience of running together. They don’t mind the elite runners taking all the prize money because 1) elites make it interesting, and 2) how many sports allow pros and amateurs to play on the same field at the same event? Just like we’re all equals at the start line, we’re all equals at the expo post-race. It doesn’t matter if you’re a pro or regular Joe...you’re a FINISHER. You beat the race. It didn’t beat you. You didn’t blow all that money on a DNF. You WON.

Romantic relationships are a little like that. It’s less about getting THIS girl or THAT girl, or proving to a bunch of rednecks or ghetto thugs that you are a “real man,” strutting your machismo versus everyone calling you, to use Marknis’s words, a f@&&ut. It’s more about keeping company with and building relationships with people you value—not for the sake of keeping up with the pack for it’s own sake, but for what these people have to offer you.

Marknis is not really a bad guy. There are possibly two explanations for his predicament. 1) He’s surrounded by people who have nothing of value to offer him. 2) What he has to offer is of no value to others around him.

You cannot claim to be an individualist and seek to control others. I don’t have the right to ask runners to slow down just so I can win just ONE time. I prove myself by being the king of the track where I do most of my running and on the road routes I pick for my long runs. At my last 10k, I actually did let a woman I know finish ahead of me. For one, men typically run faster than women, so beating a woman to the finish line is an empty victory. For another, it was fun to watch her panic while I kept pushing her pace harder and harder. I got more out of watching her face letting her beat me than I would have killing her in a final sprint. I won’t be so generous next year.

I let her place ahead of me because I WANTED her to. Because it was FUN. Because I was in firm control over that outcome. Nobody asked me to do it. I didn’t beg anyone to fix the race. And I don’t care what anyone thinks of me.

You can’t make someone fall for you. All you can do is be the best YOU can be and offer that in exchange for her company. By keeping the emphasis on what makes YOU awesome, you’re running, and finishing, the race. What other people do in response is up to them. You can’t be an individualist and beg macho men to back down so you can get your turn. If that’s what it takes, then you don’t have much to offer and you won’t work to make your goals happen. And what happens when they back down and you STILL face rejection? What would happen if every other runner backed down to put me first and I still hit the wall at mile 20? Not only do I get a DNF, but so does every other runner.

And therein lies the problem of “nice guys finish last.” If we finish last, SO WHAT??? Why not just finish? What’s so bad about that? If just being a “nice guy” is really all that matters, and all macho jerks have to back off while you work on getting the girl, you have a real problem. If everyone has to go away while you get your turn at bat, and you face rejection time and time again, not only do YOU lose, but so does anyone else.

“Nice guys,” if you carry this out to its logical end, are not interested in finishing, last or otherwise. They are merely concerned with keeping everyone else from finishing at all. This is a result of envy. If you want to know why women don’t want to be with “nice guys,” it’s because of this. And that means “nice guys” aren’t really nice at all. “Nice Guys” get DNF at life and DESERVE it. I have no sympathy for them at all.

Don’t be that guy. Focus on what makes you awesome and don’t worry about what anyone else thinks. If you get friends and romance, GREAT! If not, who cares? Measure success by finishing what you start, not by unreasonable standards imposed upon you by others. You will ALWAYS succeed and win that way.

Nice guys DON'T finish last.

Screw Leo Durocher!! !! !! !

It's no use trying to argue with Incels.

Hahaha!! ! Wrong context. lol

True, though. Leo was talking about talented guys who don’t have to worry about actually winning because they get paid the same either way. They don’t really bother playing the game. I don’t have any respect for people like that, either.

You can be as nice as you want. But when it comes to zero sum games, there’s no point in being nice.

Dating and relationships are not zero sum. Everyone really can win, and they win best when they win together.

I am not an incel.

I was called that a lot on other forums when I complained about being single & my problems getting a girlfriend. I'm on the asexuality spectrum & don't desire sex outside of a serious romantic realtionship. I posted about that too & I was still called Incel. Some people really do not understand/relate.

I think I remember you saying you were from Texas. What part?

Central Texas Killeen-Temple-Fort Hood area. Specifically, I live in Temple.