Why do almost all 'incels' blame their situation on looks?

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eternal suffering
Butterfly
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02 Aug 2019, 7:19 pm

If you've ever spent any time observing or engaging with the incel community it becomes clear that many or even perhaps most of them are on the autism spectrum. Most of them aren't just losers in that they can't get laid but they're also unemployed, lack friends, have severe social anxiety and depression, barely ever leave their house etc. which are all common issues for those of an autistic persuasion and shouldn't be the case if their only issue was that they simply weren't that attractive.
Moreover it was confirmed that both Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian, the two mass killers known to have been influenced by the incel subculture and to have had an incel motive, were diagnosed with autism. I'm not sure about Alek, but Elliot never even approached a girl. Neither of them were ugly, in fact Elliot was rather good looking like many self-described incels that I've seen. Despite this they seemed to have believed that the issue was that they simply weren't physically attractive enough to find a girl willing to date or engage in coitus with them.
Incels generally believe that only an elite minority of 'chads' blessed with chiseled jaws and the like ever get any action and that the vast majority of men are miserable lonely rejects like them as apparently women have massively inflated standards, but obviously this is delusional and the vast majority of NTs don't share their struggle even though few of them would qualify as 'chads'.
So what gives? Are they aware of their social difficulties yet for some reason ashamed of them and would rather believe their problem lies in their supposedly subpar looks instead, or are they really just lacking in self-awareness and their autism gives them a flawed understanding of social interactions and leads them to think that sex and social relationships are things that just automatically occur after one passes a certain threshold in physical attractiveness?



cberg
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02 Aug 2019, 7:31 pm

Inb4 inevitable lock

I guess your username makes sense considering this absurdly masochistic internet passtime you posted about.

IMO this isn't useful stuff for much of anyone to think about. Appearances have some significance but not all the significance.


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Hollywood_Guy
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02 Aug 2019, 7:35 pm

I thought I heard the Elliot Roger someone said it was a hoax? Do we have verification he was diagnosed with autism?



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02 Aug 2019, 9:59 pm

eternal suffering wrote:
If you've ever spent any time observing or engaging with the incel community it becomes clear that many or even perhaps most of them are on the autism spectrum. Most of them aren't just losers in that they can't get laid but they're also unemployed, lack friends, have severe social anxiety and depression, barely ever leave their house etc. which are all common issues for those of an autistic persuasion and shouldn't be the case if their only issue was that they simply weren't that attractive.
Moreover it was confirmed that both Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian, the two mass killers known to have been influenced by the incel subculture and to have had an incel motive, were diagnosed with autism.

Apparently this was not the case for Elliot Rodger, according to this Psych Central article and this Forbes article. Can you provide evidence that he was diagnosed with ASD?

But you're apparently right about Alek Minassian, according to this news story.

Anyhow, the above-linked Psych Central article also suggests a possible alternative explanation of the troubles of at least some incels: that they are not autistic but just spoiled brats.

eternal suffering wrote:
I'm not sure about Alek, but Elliot never even approached a girl.

Can you provide a source for this?

Now for an interesting question you raised:

eternal suffering wrote:
Neither of them were ugly, in fact Elliot was rather good looking like many self-described incels that I've seen. Despite this they seemed to have believed that the issue was that they simply weren't physically attractive enough to find a girl willing to date or engage in coitus with them.
Incels generally believe that only an elite minority of 'chads' blessed with chiseled jaws and the like ever get any action and that the vast majority of men are miserable lonely rejects like them as apparently women have massively inflated standards, but obviously this is delusional and the vast majority of NTs don't share their struggle even though few of them would qualify as 'chads'.
So what gives?

As I learned recently in other threads here on Wrong Planet, this belief might be based partly on the experiences of men using dating apps, most of which intrinsically encourage a very superficial, looks-based approach. Because a majority of users of these dating apps are men, the women users enjoy a scarcity value and hence can be pickier. Hence it might perhaps be true that, in the realm of dating apps, only the "Chads" get very much action.

Of course, most young men have plenty of other opportunities to meet young women besides just dating apps.

For example, most young men have lots of dating opportunities in high school and college. Which leads me to wonder: How many "incels" have gone to college? I would guess, probably not most of them. I would also guess that many of them may be high-school dropouts. If so, then they don't have nearly as many opportunities to meet young women as most young men do.

I would further suspect that most incels live in sparsely-populated rural areas, giving them even fewer opportunities to meet women, both because there are fewer people in general in rural areas and because rural women are more likely than rural men to move to a city.

I would also suspect that most incels are nonreligious, so they didn't get to meet girls at a church youth group. And, even if they didn't drop out of high school, their nonreligiosity would make them unpopular among girls in the Bible Belt.

I don't know whether the above suspicions of mine are correct; they are just guesses. However, if indeed many incels are rural nonreligious high school dropouts or at least not college educated, then they are men who have had little or no opportunity to meet women outside of dating apps, which encourage a very superficial looks-oriented mentality, and where the odds are against them; hence their belief that a handful of "Chads" are hogging all the women.

You're probably right that at least some incels are autistic.

But there are probably also a lot of rural nonreligious high school dropouts who aren't autistic, but who would be just as likely to be incels, and who may have derived their looks-oriented beliefs from their experience using dating apps.

These same rural nonreligious high school dropouts would also tend to be unsuccessful in the job market, due both to lack of education and lack of church-based social connections to help them find jobs.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 02 Aug 2019, 10:47 pm, edited 6 times in total.

ezbzbfcg2
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02 Aug 2019, 10:05 pm

I think it's all about combinations.

Being an average-to-ugly NT has the neurotypical advantage.
Being a good-looking Aspies has the looks advantage.

EDIT: Money/stability often helps in these situations as well!

Being both average-to-ugly WITH Asperger's is a recipe for disaster. Not for all, but very, very common, especially when these men are dealing with a population of NT females and in poor financial shape.

I think that's a fair observation. Most incels, I agree, are probably on the spectrum, but don't know it / won't admit it / haven't heard of it.



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02 Aug 2019, 10:43 pm

I really don't care about the question. Incels are dumb racist misogynists whether on the spectrum or not. Their communities on or offline should be infiltrated broken up hacked and otherwise destroyed b/c they're by definition a danger to themselves and a danger to society everywhere they exist. The scariest part is they're transnational. The fight against them should therefore be transational. They need to be isolated and forced into years of therapy to deprogram them. This thread could just as easily be on the PPR board but whatever. f**k them all!



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02 Aug 2019, 11:51 pm

Hi breaks0,

I agree that the "incel" belief system is extremely dangerous. But I think that an understanding of the "incel" belief system and where it comes from is an essential first step toward any attempt to "deprogram" them, and toward preventing other men from falling into it in the first place.


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traven
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03 Aug 2019, 12:47 am

the easiest thing;
to blame it on a thing you have (self-allegedly) no control over

8) 8O oh hey, isn't that the 'plat du jour'



breaks0
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03 Aug 2019, 1:05 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Hi breaks0,

I agree that the "incel" belief system is extremely dangerous. But I think that an understanding of the "incel" belief system and where it comes from is an essential first step toward any attempt to "deprogram" them, and toward preventing other men from falling into it in the first place.

People are doing that as I know you are. I think political resistance to them has moved well past the first step you speak of. I'm not at all saying dont do what youre suggesting, by all means do so. But at the same time I think more forceful, organized political action is necessary. Everywhere now not in a year or 2 but now. Research and education are only 1 or 2 parts of what has to be a much more multifaceted struggle. So when I say destroy their networks, disarm them, deprogram them, isolate them including in the ND community I mean do it now. And I'll take it further and say that because theres so much overlap between their communities and those that are patriarchal/misogynist/queer phobic, white nationalist/fascist and supportive of classist and class exploitative social forces, this is why I support things like Antifa. Im not an anarchist as they are but they serve a necessary function of self defense against far right social and political forces. Potentially even against incels. I know Antifa has its own problems but the crap that many conservatives post about the. on this site is largely factually fallacious and misleading. I know this is unfortunately a long term struggle but its one we have to fight and we shouldnt be afraid to use any viable weapon in our arsenal because you can be sure they wont.



eternal suffering
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03 Aug 2019, 2:52 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Apparently this was not the case for Elliot Rodger, according to this Psych Central article and this Forbes article. Can you provide evidence that he was diagnosed with ASD?

But you're apparently right about Alek Minassian, according to this news story.

Anyhow, the above-linked Psych Central article also suggests a possible alternative explanation of the troubles of at least some incels: that they are not autistic but just spoiled brats.


Well personally it was quite obvious after having watched his vlogs and reading his manifesto (takes one to know one - in regards to the autism at least) but there is also some solid evidence from various sources which I have dug up:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27562917
"Earlier, Peter Rodger's lawyer, Alan Shifman, said that the "family believes the child was the perpetrator".
He said Mr Rodger's son had been "diagnosed at an earlier age of being a highly functional Asperger Syndrome child", had trouble making friends and had been receiving professional help."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings
"According to his mother, Rodger was diagnosed as having Asperger syndrome, but a formal medical diagnosis of the disorder was not made.[71] He was in fact diagnosed with pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified, another autism spectrum disorder, in 2007."

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 044AAw6Fks
Here is a yahoo answers question by him asking if he can purchase a gun while diagnosed with autism (which he mentions being on SSI benefits for):
"Can I buy a gun if I am diagnosed with autism?
I am diagnosed with a minor case of autism and I recieve SSI benefits. Will I still be allowed to purchase a gun in California?"

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/02/us/e ... rawal.html
"Mr. Rodger’s mother, Li Chin, filed an affidavit describing Elliot as a “high-functioning autistic child,” and said she needed more child support to care for him.

“He wasn’t just a little withdrawn,” Mr. Astaire said. “He was as withdrawn as any person I ever met in my life.”

Ms. Smith, who became the principal of Independence the year Mr. Rodger was a junior, said he had displayed classic symptoms of Asperger’s syndrome: He was socially awkward, had trouble making eye contact and was very withdrawn, if very smart. “Sometimes at lunch, kids would encourage him to join their tables,” she said. “Sometimes he would. But even when he did, he would just kind of be present.”
His longest conversations seemed to be with one of the special-education assistants, with whom he would discuss World of Warcraft.
“He had this push and pull between his desire to engage socially and his fear of rejection,” Ms. Smith said.
Yet he was liked at Independence. Ms. Smith said that some of the students had felt protective of him, and that staff members had referred to him as “our Elliot.”
They lost track of him after he graduated and headed to Pierce College, one of a series of colleges he attended before landing in Isla Vista. About a year later, Ms. Smith said, the boy’s parents sent an email with an upbeat report on Elliot. It was the last time anyone gave “our Elliot” much thought, until he emerged 10 days ago, defined by his 140-page manifesto and videos.
“That’s not the kid that I knew,” Ms. Smith said. “He presented as very innocent, very soft-spoken. He never even raised his voice.”"

I can understand why those in the autism community may not want to be associated with murderers like this, but we shouldn't let emotional biases cloud our vision. The issue of autistic guys having frustration and resentment build up due to facing years of bullying, loneliness, alienation, rejection, etc. and then in extreme cases being released in an explosion of violence like this is one that I think ought to be addressed rather than swept under the rug due to political correctness.

Mona Pereth wrote:
Can you provide a source for this?


Well to be fair I'm repeating hearsay and I don't have absolute proof but according to https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Elliot_Rodger there was only one documented instance in his manifesto of anything even coming close to an approach:
"One time, as I was walking across the huge bridge that connected the two campuses, I passed by a girl I thought was pretty and said “Hi” as we neared each other. She kept on walking and didn’t even have the grace to respond to me. How dare she! That foul b***h. I felt so humiliated that I went to one of the school bathrooms, locked myself in a toilet stall, and cried for an hour."

As for the rest of your comment you make some good observations thanks.



eternal suffering
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03 Aug 2019, 3:12 am

traven wrote:
the easiest thing;
to blame it on a thing you have (self-allegedly) no control over

8) 8O oh hey, isn't that the 'plat du jour'


Well it's not like we have much control over our autism either though right? But I suppose there may be more room for improvement in terms of social skills and confidence than for looks, idk.
I guess a large part of why they fixate on looks is because it externalizes the issue by implying that the reason they have no success with women is due to their high standards and thus the problem is in a way with them, and it means they can avoid looking inward and acknowledging and confronting their own personal flaws in their personality and attitude and their mental illness.



eternal suffering
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03 Aug 2019, 3:33 am

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
I think it's all about combinations.

Being an average-to-ugly NT has the neurotypical advantage.
Being a good-looking Aspies has the looks advantage.

EDIT: Money/stability often helps in these situations as well!

Being both average-to-ugly WITH Asperger's is a recipe for disaster. Not for all, but very, very common, especially when these men are dealing with a population of NT females and in poor financial shape.

I think that's a fair observation. Most incels, I agree, are probably on the spectrum, but don't know it / won't admit it / haven't heard of it.


I guess so. Personally I've been told I'm good looking throughout my life and I even received attention from girls that seemed attracted to me but my crippling anxiety would make me freeze up and prevent me from engaging with them so it didn't do me any good. Now I'm a hermit completely disconnected from society with no car/job so I could have the perfect face/physique and it would just go to waste. I guess it depends on the degree of autism in the person and how functional they are.
I think that an unattractive NT generally has a better shot than a better looking autist though. I have seen tons of thoroughly unremarkable looking guys punching above their weight, but at the very least virtually all NTs have had some sexual and relationship experience even if they don't get to pick from the cream of the crop like a better looking or more wealthy guy does, but when you have autism it seems like you're just out of the game for good.



ezbzbfcg2
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03 Aug 2019, 6:05 am

eternal suffering wrote:
...but when you have autism it seems like you're just out of the game for good.


Unfortunately, oftentimes, yes.



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03 Aug 2019, 6:32 am

Mona is right about the dating apps.

Most people get relationships through friendship networks, something that autistic guys don’t usually have.



Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 03 Aug 2019, 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

The Grand Inquisitor
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03 Aug 2019, 7:45 am

I'm surprised this thread's lasted as long as it has with this site's rules regarding talking about incels.