Genuine attempt to understand misunderstood as discomfort
So here is rather brief conversation I had with a girl online. What do you think of it?
HER: Shalom!
ME: Shalom! It's really great you are Messianic, not many people on this website are. Nice to meet someone of the same faith! So tell me more about your faith journey. How did you transition from southern Baptist to Messianic?
HER: found out I was born JEWISH. I am glad your JEWISH
ME: That's so cool you are Jewish!! ! So how come you didn't know it? And how did you finally find out?
HER: I am ADOPTED and my ADOPTED FAMILY units ANTISEMITIC. they are ANTISEMITIC
ME: So how did you find your biological family? And if your adopted family are anti-Semitic, why did they adopted a Jew?
HER: I do not know them. they adopted me into their and raised me Christian
ME: So how did you find out your biological family is Jewish?
HER: I was invited to a messianic synagogue and was told to do a DNA test show's I have JEWISH in me. then I went to a REGULAR synagogue and found out THROUGH some one who knew me as a little girl and they said I was brought into a synagogue to be announced that my ADOPTED FAMILY a MK had ADOPTED a ROMANIAN Jewish ORPHAN.
I was packing for the flight at the time so I didn't respond right away -- I mean it took me like 10 minutes to respond and this was not the first time it happened -- I am not sure if this was why she decided I was uncomfortable or if she didn't like my questions or what was it? In any case -- 10 minutes after the above question (when I dind't have a chance to respond yet) she wrote the following:
HER: I am sorry if this makes you uncomfortable and doesn't make any sense to you I can go ahead and move on...my life has never made any sense. I am jus being as honest as I can
ME: I didn't say it made me uncomfortable. On the contrary I am glad to meet someone Jewish. Asking questions is my way of trying to learn about you.
She didn't reply so I wrote again:
ME: Look, I AM interested in you. If you thought that I wasn't -- you misunderstood my signals. But I very much AM interested, you are the first Jew on this site, thats great! Is there a way for us to continue to talk?
HER: yes
ME: If its a yes why aren't you saying anything.
ME AGAIN: 1) YOU said I was uncomfortable and offered to stopped talking -- even though I never said I was uncomfortable only you did 2) When I told you I was comfortable and still wanted to talk you didn't say anything beyond yes, which makes me feel you STILL aren't talking DESPITE my telling you I was still interested. So you don't believe me do you
ME AGAIN: Okay where exactly did I say I was uncomfortable? Please quote me PLEASE
ME AGAIN: THE ONLY THING I EXPLICITLY SAID IS YES I WANT TO TALK. Yet you trust some implicit signals over what I said explicitly. So you gave one word answer -- despite my telling you I still want to talk -- ALL because of some implicit signals that you read which I never intended to give
HER: I went to sleep. just woke up. most people do not understand my situation or just flat out not care...my FAMILY situation is a complete disaster.
ME: Well, in order for me to understand I had to ask questions. Once you answered them I understand.
HER: not everyone understands. how is your morning so far?HAPPY THANKSGIVING
(I was boarding the plane when she sent me those messages so I only answered them few hours later when I got off the plane)
ME: Sorry I was on a plane, I flew from New Mexico to California to visit my mom for thanksgiving. I boarded the plane within seconds after I sent you the previous message and I arrived just now
HER: ok
ME: See you are again only giving one word answers
HER: because I do better speaking on the phone...sorry...lol I would like to chat with you on the phone.
ME: My number is ****
HER: ok, when is the best time to call you?
ME: On Monday: I am visiting my mom for Thanksgiving and I don't want her to know I go to dating sites. On Sunday night I am returning back to my university so call me Monday
HER: ok. why you don't you want your mom to know?
ME: she treats me like a little kid due to my Asperger
HER: I'm sorry.
ME: Okay I returned back to school. So when do you want to call me?
ME: See how you read my message and didn't reply. How come you used to reply within few minutes but -- after you say you are moving on -- I have to FIGHT to get you to write me? So you are sticking by what you said, don't you? But I thought I corrected you -- I thought when you said I don't like you I said I did -- so how come you don't believe me?
HER: first of all you text me at 1:59 am. I was in bed. you told m.j e to call you Monday. and I just woke up.
ME: I saw you online an hour ago
HER: please call me (*** gives her number ***)
I didn't call her Monday since I felt like I basically forced her to say yes. She called me Tuesday morning -- at the time when I was busy grading papers of the students I am a TA for -- but I talked to her anyway, I can multitask; there were just a lot of pauses (and yes I mentioned it to her, she said its okay). In any case, the way conversation went is that she didn't talk about herself at all, she was just asking me questions about me, and I was answering them. So when I told her I was grading papers she asked me if I was a professor. I told her no I am a grad student because I couldn't find a professor job. She asked me if this was because of Asperger. I told her that its related to Asperger only indirectly but not directly. In particular, due to Asperger, I get fixated on certain things, so I was too fixated on physics topics that aren't interesting to others only to me, and I wasted too much time on it and now I am trying to recover. She asked me if I was on disability, I said no and never will be, she said she understands where I am coming from. Then she asked me what it was that got me to believe in Jesus (since she knows I was born Jewish). I told her that my family had Jewish friends coming over and they mentioend that in the middle ages people thought Jews have horns, I didn't know how it is possible to think that, but when I asked that question they didn't really answer it, so I looked it up online and found an explanation that in John 8:44 Jesus was telling Jews that they are the children of the devil. Now I know that it is not to be taken literally, but back then I took it literally since I never read the Bible before. Well, I was going to elaborate on how I no longer take it literally and what I learned from this, but I didn't because she interrupted me. So she interrupted me by saying that what he had problem with is the pretend-righteousness rather than actual righteousness, and she pointed out how he said they were "straigning out the gnant and swallowing a camel". I said "yes he said that too, but that was Matthew 23 while what I was talking about is John chapter 8, but I agree with you, its the same concept". Then she said she had to go do some stuff because she just woke up and she will call me in an hour. I didn't get a phone call from her in an hour -- although to be fair my phone was turned off. Then we had the following conversation over the texts:
ME: Did I say something that turned you off, I just noticed you ended the chat rather abruptly
HER: No. I got busy.
HER AGAIN: Sorry ... I will call you back
HER AGAIN: I tried calling you but went to voicemail
ME: It feels like you aren't that interested and are only trying to be nice. Since you USED TO BE interested at first, I am back with a question: what did I do that turned you off?
HER: Every time I call you it went straight to voicemail
ME: I just keep my phone off to save battery: the phone runs out of charge within few hours when its on
ME AGAIN: I mean, if you TRULY wanted to talk you culd have texted me. Thats why it feels like you are not that interested
ME AGAIN: See, and now you aren't responding
ME AGAIN: Look, there was all sorts of things you could have done, you could have texted me, you could have given me a time when you wanted me to have phone on, etc etc etc. So can you tell me HONESTLY why is it you lost interest
HER: I did text you. I text that I tried calling but went to voicemail
ME: I mean that was an explanation why you didn't tlak rather than an attempt to arrange to talk
ME AGAIN: Okay what if I tell you I will turn the phone on at the time you tell me to. Will you be willing to try again?
HER: ok
ME: But you are just saying okay, you aren't giving me any time
ME AGAIN: So how come you are again not responding? I mean you used to respond right away the first day we talked but, ever since then, you don't say any more than ok
ME AGAIN: I told you -- give me time and my phone will be on -- but nope you didn't give me time, you just said ok
ME AGAIN: Okay I tried calling you myself just now. How come you didn't pick it up?
ME AGAIN: Look you misunderstood me: when I was asking questions about your family, I wasn't jusding you I was only trying to learn about your life. You mistook my signals as if I was judging you and distanced yourself. But the point is that I wans't, so I feel it was miscommunication thats why I want another chance
ME AGAIN: I mean I called you the second time and again you didn't pick it up. Can you tell me why is that?
ME AGAIN: Okay here is the thing. One of the main symptoms of Asperger is social faux passes. So whatever I did INITIALLY that turned you off was probably one of those faux passes. Thats why I wish we could sit down and discuss what happened that way I can fix it.
I never heard from you ever since.
HER: Shalom!
ME: Shalom! It's really great you are Messianic, not many people on this website are. Nice to meet someone of the same faith! So tell me more about your faith journey. How did you transition from southern Baptist to Messianic?
HER: found out I was born JEWISH. I am glad your JEWISH
ME: That's so cool you are Jewish!! ! So how come you didn't know it? And how did you finally find out?
HER: I am ADOPTED and my ADOPTED FAMILY units ANTISEMITIC. they are ANTISEMITIC
ME: So how did you find your biological family? And if your adopted family are anti-Semitic, why did they adopted a Jew?
HER: I do not know them. they adopted me into their and raised me Christian
ME: So how did you find out your biological family is Jewish?
HER: I was invited to a messianic synagogue and was told to do a DNA test show's I have JEWISH in me. then I went to a REGULAR synagogue and found out THROUGH some one who knew me as a little girl and they said I was brought into a synagogue to be announced that my ADOPTED FAMILY a MK had ADOPTED a ROMANIAN Jewish ORPHAN.
I was packing for the flight at the time so I didn't respond right away -- I mean it took me like 10 minutes to respond and this was not the first time it happened -- I am not sure if this was why she decided I was uncomfortable or if she didn't like my questions or what was it? In any case -- 10 minutes after the above question (when I dind't have a chance to respond yet) she wrote the following:
HER: I am sorry if this makes you uncomfortable and doesn't make any sense to you I can go ahead and move on...my life has never made any sense. I am jus being as honest as I can
ME: I didn't say it made me uncomfortable. On the contrary I am glad to meet someone Jewish. Asking questions is my way of trying to learn about you.
She didn't reply so I wrote again:
ME: Look, I AM interested in you. If you thought that I wasn't -- you misunderstood my signals. But I very much AM interested, you are the first Jew on this site, thats great! Is there a way for us to continue to talk?
HER: yes
ME: If its a yes why aren't you saying anything.
She misread you for uncomfortable for whatever reason, probably her own insecurities. You said you weren't. Clarified.
The right move here would be to go back to the topic you both were comfortable with - ask her about synagogues or if she knows anything more about Romanian Jews, or about your own Russian Jewish origins or how confrontation with her adoptive family went... something she wanted to talk about - you knew she wanted because she talked about it a lot just a moment later.
ME AGAIN: Okay where exactly did I say I was uncomfortable? Please quote me PLEASE
ME AGAIN: THE ONLY THING I EXPLICITLY SAID IS YES I WANT TO TALK. Yet you trust some implicit signals over what I said explicitly. So you gave one word answer -- despite my telling you I still want to talk -- ALL because of some implicit signals that you read which I never intended to give
HER: I went to sleep. just woke up. most people do not understand my situation or just flat out not care...my FAMILY situation is a complete disaster.
She wanted to talk to you about her family, not about things that you didn't say. That was settled. Go back to the topic you both wanted to discuss.
I might analyse the rest later, right now I need to go
The pattern behind your social failures seems to be: you push when the right move would be to step back. That makes you appear agressive and confrontational, and generally "with issues".
The move to learn:
Say "oh, okay" and go back to what you were doing previously.
_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
Its at this point that the conversation gets way too involved. You limit the conversation to a potentially sensitive subject.
Better to acknowledge what she says and keep the direction broader, like...
"Wow, quite a jouney! I'm doing ( whatever)
How about you, what are your interests?"
PS that was by no meens brief QFT!
Last edited by Sahn on 11 Dec 2019, 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reading a little further ...
Yeah, look this reply would seem to back up my last observation.
I'm surprised that she's still talking to you by this point, you're already cornering her and being nit -picky as hell. Making it known in a FRIENDLY WAY that you are available should she ever want to continue chatting is a better way to go IMHO. The conversation and demands already feel claustrophobic.
That was a cue to move into some more lighthearted conversation, one which you totally ignore. Blinded by your niggles you forsook the chance and as things wind up, put it all down to faux pas.
Last edited by Sahn on 11 Dec 2019, 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Man, you are pushy and demanding in this conversation. She must be an extraordinarily patient and easygoing person to have talked to you as long as she did.
I would’ve been done in half the time.
_________________
“The darkness shall be the light, and the stillness the dancing.”
— from Four Quartets by T.S. Eliot
You are making the same problems on here that we have been over in your other threads.
1. You offer no sympathy or compassion towards her when she tells you that she’s been adopted into an anti-Semitic household. She still talks to you after that but it’s still swirling in the back of her mind.
2. If it’s possible, next time you are in the middle of a sensitive conversation in which someone is pouring her heart out (like this one) and have to leave for a few minutes apologize and tell the woman that you have to do something right away but will be back soon. When you return to the conversation, you can demonstrate that you were continuing to ponder what she was talking about by a follow-up question or expression of sympathy.
3. Stop using the word “you” in an accusatory manner. Don’t say “you misunderstood me,” “you misread my signals,” “how come you didn’t pick up,” “see now you aren’t responding,” “I have to FIGHT to get you to respond to me” (
If I was her, I’d be thinking about changing my number...), etc. Stop doing that. It’s confrontational and it’s putting the blame on her end. Also, after hearing it from a person multiple times it comes to be a type of put down. In the future, use “I” statements and the occasional “we.” For example, instead of saying “you misunderstood me” say “I think what I said came out wrong. What I meant was...”
4. Stop being so damn pushy! Jeez! The pushier you are in getting somebody to respond or interact with you the less they want to. Knock it off! If you are already coming across as a controlling and manipulative boyfriend in 30 minutes of total conversation, it’s always going to be problematic.
5. Don’t send multiple messages without a response (for the millionth time...). The longer it continues, the more it drives someone away (especially if each message is accusatory or dramatic instead of light and positive).
6. Never write in all caps, unless it’s something like HAPPY BIRTHDAY, because that conveys the idea that you are yelling at someone.
7. Don’t talk about your relationship problems or communication issues as a couple, especially by placing the blame on her, when you aren’t yet in a relationship. Drop the drama.
8. Try to stay positive and upbeat.
I might add more later, but all of the things I’ve demonstrated so far indicate that other than speaking English and having the same faith you don’t have a lot more to offer which is probably not the message you’d like to convey. Instead, the poor woman is pushed to envision future fights with a toxic person. Think about what qualities you’d like to be perceived as possessing and behave accordingly.
The mistakes in this conversation all could have been avoided if you had followed the advice people have given you.
_________________
“The darkness shall be the light, and the stillness the dancing.”
— from Four Quartets by T.S. Eliot
At the first part of conversation, she was the one writing in all caps. In fact, that was part of the reason why I didn't relate emotionally to what she was saying -- until she said she was backing off -- and that got my attention. But no, I didn't perceive her caps as aggression. It was a bit more of an opposite: aggressive people capitalize the whole sentence. But she didn't capitalize the whole sentence. She capitalized all the nouns. So I thought that maybe she always capitalizes all the nowns in all of her sentences her whole life. Which kinda made me wonder how could she live all those years without noticing that others don't do it, which then made me feel like maybe she never lived a real life, which, in turn, made it a lot harder for me to relate emotionally to what she was saying. It felt like "okay I am talking to a robot, since I have nothing to lose might as well talk to the robot some more". But then, after she backed off, I realized this wasn't the case and that was when I got pushy and angry.
Caps in the first part of conversation sygnalize strong emotions connected to the capsed words. Discovery that she was Jewish and her adoptive parents antisemitic must have been an enormous emotional baggage.
I don't know why you interpreted it as "talking to a robot". It's quite the opposite, talking to a very emotional person.
_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
Last edited by magz on 11 Dec 2019, 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don't know why you interpreted it as "talking to a robot". It's quite the opposite, talking to a very emotional person.
Yes, on the hindsight I agree with you. But I only realized this when I saw she no longer capitalized words when she no longer talked about the subject. So now that I learned this, I will try to think harder next time I look at something that looks like poor grammar. Thats why I want second chances that I don't always see something right away yet I see it later and then I am like "give me a chance to fix this mistake".
I would’ve been done in half the time.
Because they're both Jewish - Jews have an innate-connection with each other.
I would’ve been done in half the time.
Because they're both Jewish - Jews have an innate-connection with each other.
Oh. Are you Jewish?
If not, how do you know how they feel, especially when you don’t know them personally? Everyone is different after all.
I didn’t feel an innate connection to people in my religious community that I used to be quite involved with.
_________________
“The darkness shall be the light, and the stillness the dancing.”
— from Four Quartets by T.S. Eliot
I don't know why you interpreted it as "talking to a robot". It's quite the opposite, talking to a very emotional person.
Yes, on the hindsight I agree with you. But I only realized this when I saw she no longer capitalized words when she no longer talked about the subject. So now that I learned this, I will try to think harder next time I look at something that looks like poor grammar. Thats why I want second chances that I don't always see something right away yet I see it later and then I am like "give me a chance to fix this mistake".
Hi QFT,
I think it's great that you're Jewish and you met another Jewish Aspie.
I think the issue in your writing might not have been anything you said in particular - but I think it was how you were very intense in general with your writing.
I understand as an Aspie that sometimes we don't understand everything someone says to us, and you were a bit frustrated - but I think you unintentionally overreacted a bit (or at least had the appearance of overreacting).
In the conversation, she was very patient and asked for your number and she gave you her number, so she definitely wanted to talk to you.
The important thing is - I think she eventually thought that you didn't like her and that she was making you upset.
She didn't want to make you upset, so she left you alone to give you space.
You two being Jewish is actually very special and Jewish people are a Tribe.
The reason you got on so well is that you both have an innate-connection with each other - the way God designed it to be.
I would explain to her that my Aspergers makes it difficult for me to understand people sometimes and that I may have given the impression of overreacting and that I am sorry.
Then just give her space and wait for her to reconnect to you.
I think it's just a simple misunderstanding and your friendship with her is still very much intact.
She isn't an aspie -- or at least she wasn't diagnosed with it. The way I know she wasn't diagnosed is that she asked me what is Asperger's during our phone conversation.
Its possible she is misdiagnosed case though -- at least I suspected it when I saw her capitalizing certian words.
She didn't want to make you upset, so she left you alone to give you space.
If that was her motive then this is the exact thing I am confused and frustrated about -- not just with her, but with other girls too. Yes I was upset -- but the question is: where did she get an idea that if I am upset I want to be left alone?! Its quite the opposite. The thing I am upset about is that she doesn't talk to me. So the easy solution is to talk to me and I won't be upset. So where on earth does she get an idea that if I am upset because I don't get enough attention I should be given even less attention?! It makes no logical sense.
And the thing is that its not just her: I remember examples of other girls who were saying they were giving me space because they felt like I wanted to be left alone. But if I truly wanted to be left alone why would I be pestering them about not giving me enough attention? Did they think I had multiple personality or something?!
