Progression of desperation

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What keeps happening in my life is that -- due to the fact that I am desperate -- I keep trying to lie to myself that others might like me after all. So, in order to do it, I have to lower my standards and lie to myself that I don't really lower them. But then as one thing adds to the next, it ends up so blatant that it is undeniable. Let me give you few examples where this happened:

EXAMPLE 1

Step a: Back in 2007 (yes, over 10 years ago) I was chatting to a girl on a dating site, and she have expressed the desire to meet me, she was excited about it, probably talked about future she was totally looking forward to, etc. So I basically took it for granted that I have her and everything she mentioned will happen.

Step b: Then we finally met. Well, like I said, I took it for granted that I have her. So I only asked whether I have her just to double check. But, surprisingly, she didn't say "of course you have me". She had some slight doubt about it. But I told myself "okay she means to say I -- probably -- have her, and she is just stressing the fact that probably isn't certain but its near certain". Well, I know it sounded more unsettling than that, especially since it was such a surprise, but at least I was "trying" to say this to myself.

Step c: So then I asked again, just to see if the tale I was saying to myself was true. I basically asked "how come you were so sure online but you aren't as sure any more". Well, instead of saying "its probably yes just not certain" she said "I don't know". And I was like "what?" I thought you knew, and now you don't know? But, again since I am desperate, I decided to lie to myself. So I told myself "it is still probably yes -- probably yes is one of the cases of not knowing; sometimes when people don't know its probably no, sometimes its probably yes, sometimes its 50/50; well, in this case its probably yes -- given what she was saying before we met".

Step d: But then again I asked just to make sure. And she said that she is "not" attracted to me. And then I lied to myself saying "okay, she didn't say she doesn't want to date me; she just -- informed -- me that she is not attracted to me -- but she still might date me despite not being attracted; so not being attracted is just one thing against me, but the other things that are 'for' me still stand, she is just providing me a full information, y'know". But you see, its kinda hard to go as far in lying to myself as telling myself it is still "probably yes" given what she just said. So I told myself "okay its 50/50, and then there is this tiny negative factor on top, so okay she said its 49 rather than 50, but still close to 50". But then I said "wait a second, so I thought it was higher than 50 and now it is 49 instead of 50? How can it be both?" So I got even more desperate.

Step e: So then I asked again as to what happened between than and now. And then she became even more clear that it is a no -- and I was lying to myself that "okay she means probably no, maybe there is still a room for yes" so I was asking "do I have any chance? I really want to undo my mistakes! etc".

Step f: And then she said that she feels like she has to bolt, stood up and left. And then there was no way for me to make sense of it. I guess if I could be super desperate I could say

(Very Excited Yes) = Yes = (probably yes) = (probably yes with the word probably stressed) = (fifty fifty) = (fifty fifty with a grain of salt that she is not attracted to me) = (probably no) = (definitely no) = (she has to bolt and she leaves)

But if I just put left hand side and right hand side and skip everything in the middle, I get

(Very Excited Yes) = (she has to bolt and leaves)

which makes no sense what so ever. But I guess if I am totally super duper desperate, then I "could" make sense if I insert the longer version of "calculation" and convince myself of every equal sign being true.

EXAMPLE 2:

As the people who seen my posts know, I tend to be long winded. So, back in 2014, I met a woman on a dating site online who was willing to engage with me in my long winded overanalyzing. So I would write two page email, and she would respond with two page email of hers, then I would write a paragraph for each of her sentence so it would become five pages and she would respond with five pages of hers, then I would write 9 pages, and she would respond with 9 pages of hers. Well, within few days I noticed that I spent most of my day basically editting the email that I sent her. But I need studies to do. So I put this off for a day and decided I will come back to it in the evening. But then I kept postponing it. I was totally thinking I would get back to her within a week or so, but during that week I happened to have met a different girl on a dating site, so I started long distance relationship with that other girl that lasted few months. So -- due to this -- I simply never got back to responding to that woman. Then the girl that dated me online broke up with me few months later, and a couple of months after she broke up with me I got back to that woman. Not with a response to that email -- I don't even remember if I had her email any more (the way christiandatingforfree.com works is that it erases old emails -- I am not sure if it erases them after time passes or after I get too many newer emails from too many other people -- in the former case her email would have been erased in the latter case it wouldn't be). But in any case, I got back with a simple question on whether we should reconnect. and after I got back to her, the following thing happened

Step a: At first I was hoping I would get back with her to the same level where we were at before I left. I was lonely and I needed that kind of attention.

Step b: To my disappointment, she told me she "wasn't sure" if she wanted to get back to the same level or not, due to the fact that I disappointed her when I stopped writing. I tried to explain to her exactly what I was explaining to you -- minus the other girl. I didn't mention I had the other girl, I just told her the part about it taking too long to write a long message and thats why I postponned it. I also told her that I think of a strategy not to do it later. In particular, I told her that my mistake was that I wanted to write it in one sitting. But I should email parts of it to myself instead and that way I can slowly get the whole thing. I also told her that, if worst comes to worst and I can't respond to "that" line of correspondence, I should start a different line of correspondence that is shorter, I didn't think of it before, but I am thinking of it now. Last but not least, I told her that one of the main things I LIKE about her is that she writes long emails -- it is so rare and hard to find and I am so LUCKY to find someone who is as long winded as I am which is so perfect -- and so it is ironic to ruin the exact thing that I like because I "seemingly" didn't like it while in fact I did.

Step c: In response to what I said in step b she said "I have to think about it" -- and I lied to myself that, after she thinks about it, she will proably say yes, but she just needs time. Hopefully tomorrow she will say yes.

Step d: I kept pushing her to get her to say yes, repeating what I was saying in part b over and over, but no she didn't say yes. In fact she was just making stronger and stronger stand on her having to think about it.

Step e: So then I told myself "okay if it won't get back to the same level it was at, maybe it can get back to half that level, and half that level is still better than with most people".

Step f: So I asked her "can it get to half that level". She said she isn't sure about it too. So I thought to myself "wow, she isn't even sure about half that level! So is she saying that she will act as if none of that connection happened? Like when I spent all those days writing those emails to her -- let along all those years I waited until she came along -- it was all for nothing?"

Step g: I then told myself -- to make myself feel better -- "okay, if she is going to start from square 1, hopefully she will get to where we were soon enough -- after all it took only one week that time".

Step h: So I asked her this question: "if we start from square 1, will we be able to get to where we were within the time frame we got there the first time around". She said "I don't know".

Step i: So then I said "wow, I thought that the worst thing is that I wasted time and we are at square 1, but now it turns out to be even worse than that?! Instead of being at square 1 we are at square MINUS something!! !" She said "well you lost my trust".

Step j: So then I became even more desperate, and she blocked me.

EXAPMLE 3:

This one is not about any specific girl but about a recurrent situation.

Step a: I am desperate to have friends or a girlfriend, but I can't get them.

Step b: I become desperate so I hope at least cashier talks to me. Of course, a cashier is not the same as a friend. But, like I said, I am desperate. So I can lie to myself that she actually wants to be my friend and it just "happened" that she "happened" to be cashier. Just a coincidence.

Step c: Most cashiers don't talk to me either

Step d: There is that really friendly cashier who spends like 5 or 10 people talking to those other customers, so I can hope maybe SHE will talk to me. Well, that wouldn't really count for much, if she is that way with everyone, there is nothing I can "personally" feel happy about (unlike others who have their own personal friends and stuff). But still, I am desperate. So I can turn the blind eye on the fact that she is that way with everyone else and "pretend" she personally likes me.

Step e: When my turn in line comes, she isn't nearly as chatty. All she does is say hello. But hey, I can pretend that saying hello also accounts for being chatty. Hello is still a word, isn't it? So I can forget all that interesting converation she had with other people -- well she was just being polite -- and just focus on that one word hello she said to me -- well, HELLO is SOMETHING!

Step f: I notice that some of those cashiers don't even say hello. In fact I am standing there waiting for htem while they are either trying to organize their cash, or talk to other people who aren't even buying anything or pretend they don't even see me. Well I can then tell myself that I it was because I wasn't looking at them, I was looking elsewhere (I purposely did it, in order to wait for them to say hello first) so maybe they are just thinking I haven't decided what I want to buy. But wait a second -- she talked to those other people, regardless of whether they decided what they wanted to buy or not -- she excitedly said hello to them before they even had a chance to look! But okay at least I didn't tape-record it, so I can still lie to myself that it just "happened" this way. And in my case, surely they will say hello at some point -- its part of their job -- and when they do I will pretend it counts more than the conversation they had with them.

Step g: And then there was a sashier yesterday who didn't say hello altogether, I just stood there for a couple of minutes while she was clearing the coffee pot, and left.

But I guess if I am really super-desperate, I can pull all of the above together to still lie to myself. The fact that she didn't say hello is just a detail. Sometimes people say hello sometimes they don't. So its as good as her saying hello. And that -- non existant -- hello is as good, or even better, than that lively chat they had -- after all, I haven't been timing it, maybe it just seemed to me that lively chat was five or ten minutes, maybe it was just as short as hello -- and that non-existent hello she said to me is just as good. And this being the case, hey maybe she is my friend: a cashier that talks to me is still a person talking to me -- and a cashier that doesn't talk to me well she is just as good as a cashier that talks to me. So yeah, maybe I just found a great friend here, and maybe that friend will even become a girlfriend if I am lucky.

Last edited by QFT on 24 Feb 2020, 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Example 1:
Well typically when you first meet a girl from a dating site, they are meeting you in person to see if they hit it off with you and would like to continue dating.

Online she had agreed to meet up with you...she didn't agree to be your girlfriend and future wife before she had even seen you in person, she agreed to a date.

You put pressure on her to decide within minutes of meeting you in person if you 'have' her and she's committed to be your gf...that probably kind of freaked her out. Chances are she was attracted to you and interested in multiple dates but the fact you were so pushy at first probably freaked her out so then she was just trying to get out of the situation with you.

I once met a guy at a bus stop, and he liked me...so he asked me out, I thought he seemed like a kinda cool guy so I agreed and we exchanged numbers to potentially meet up. And I even specified I'd like to meet so we could get to know each other. All seemed good...got on the bus and figured I had a date lined up for the week.

Then the non-stop texts from the guy started, he started demandingly asking me if I am his girlfriend and that he loves me and do I love him. I tried to tell him it was a bit early for all that and we'd need to get to know each other before I'd know anything like that. So he started getting more demanding and even kind of nasty and rude...so I had no choice but to call the date off and cut contact with him. Still don't think he was like a bad psycho killer type or anything and I hope maybe he learned not to do that and had better luck...but yeah he certainly ruined his chances with me.

I have to suspect this girl from 2007 may have ended up feeling similarly to I did...trapped and like now they just need to get out. But yeah don't beat yourself up....just work on being less pushy and letting things happen more naturally. And remember know one can possibly know for sure a relationship with you would work out through online communication...it takes spending time with the person to find out if you hit it off that way. I know some people get a long distance online relationship and sometimes do make the jump to move in with a partner(that said I have no idea what the success rate of that is) but don't think that is very common.

Last edited by Sweetleaf on 24 Feb 2020, 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Cashiers don’t say hello to me, either.

I’m sorry you’re feeling down today.

My attitude is that “crap happens...when that happens, move on to the next thing.”

Example 2:

You ghosted her for a long time plain and simple...even dated another girl in between stopping contact with her and restarting it. You probably hurt her feelings by ghosting her like that after the lengthy conversations you were having.

Then when you re-contacted with her all you did was demand that she immediately goes back to the same level of communication with you, did you even like apologize?

So for this one I'd say you can't just randomly ghost people....contact them months later and expect to pick things up right where you left off. Also I kind of have to wonder how much genuine interest you had in long winded email girl if you were actually able to start dating another girl knowing you had blown her off, and only when that girl broke it off with you did you finally re-contact long winded email girl. Then after you ghosted her and she said she would need to think about if she wanted to engage with you like you and her had before. You couldn't even respect her enough to give her some time to think and get back to you...just started demanding that she'd give you the response you wanted. I mean did you even wait 5 minutes before bombarding her?

Sweetleaf, as far as your comment about Example 1, here is something I am rather curious about. So that guy that you described, how do you think HE interepretted the outcome of you canceling the date? Do you think he realized that you were going to see him and you cancelled only because of his subsequent behavior? Or do you think that he decided that you didn't want to see him from the get-go -- which is why he kept making sure to begin with -- and your canceling the date made him think something along the lines of "see, I was right, she didn't really want to see me, thats why she didn't want to give me those 100 reassurances that I wanted -- and thats also why she cancelled it"? What do you think he have thought?

Its interesting you made a comment that you hope hope he learned from it and is having a better luck -- yet you also said he lost his chances with you. So are you saying that -- if you were to run into him today -- you still won't give him a chance -- even though you admitted yourself there is a possibility he might have improved? The reason I am asking this is that it relates to how I am to interpret the other women not giving me chances. I always interpretted it as a life sentence: as in they are so totally sure I can't change, so why should I even try? And thats why I took it so personally. But you are saying its different: you are saying that the fact that you, personally won't give him a chance does not mean you don't think he can't change. If I could grasp this concept how its logically possible that would make me deal with other womens rejection in a more healthy way. So can you elaborate on it?

Regarding example 2, one thing to point out is that I was not in a relationship with that girl. Yes, I met her on a dating site, but it was at the stage of exchanging emails. Yet, on the other hand, the other girl actually asked me if I was willing to start a relationship with her. Now, between long winded girl and the other girl, I would say long winded girl is a better relationship material for me. But the long winded girl didn't ask me -- yet -- if I wanted a relationship, yet the other girl did. So its like "one bird in a hand is better than two birds in a bush". Thats why I said yes to the only offer I got so far. I guess I probably should have waited to see what happens with the long winded girl -- I mean if she didn't think of relatinoship as a possibiity, why would she spend so much time writing all those emails? But then again, it happened to me many times when it looked like the girl was interested but then she wasn't. Thats why I had to say yes to whatever offer that was right in front of me.

As I said in that other post you started on a similar topic, desperation is annoying. Hide your desperation, and people will be less likely to reject you. Continue to display your desperation, and people will be more likely to reject you. It's just that simple.

Don't complicate it.

In the other thread I asked you how is it my fault what I feel and you said its not what I feel but how I act -- namely that I choose to "display" a desperation -- and "desplaying" it is an action.

Okay, if thats the case, then what about Example number 3. What did I "do" in Example 3 that amounted to "choosing" to "display" something?

You must remember that people aren’t equations.

Equations don’t mind people seeking the precise answer to a problem, and the inevitable inquiry and questioning.

People hate to be put on the spot. You make people uncomfortable by putting them on the spot. Don’t question people all the time. Just let them talk without being subject to an interrogation.

Ideas are more conducive to questioning than people. This is why autistic people do better at ideas than human relations.

EXAMPLE 4

Around a month ago, I got an invitation to join "graduate workers union". I have no interest in things like that, but since I am desperate to make friends I decided to join it anyway.

Step 1: They were making calls to everyone on their list. Normally, things like that are not personal and don't lead to friendships. But, since I am desperate, I lied to myself that hey there is some connection, maybe I will make friends.

Step 2: When they called me today, I was in the bad mood so I cussed them out. Normally, cussing like I did doesn't go down very well. But, since I am desperate, I told myself that they are not going to spread negative rumors about me: after all, it was just a routine call, so they didn't take my cussing personally.

Step 3: Lets combine the desperate wish of Step 1 with the desperate wish of Step 2. So their phone calls are both personal and not, depending on what suits me. Since their phone calls are not personal, they ignored the fact that I cussed at them, and will keep calling me anyway. At the same time, since their phone calls are personal, I will make some great friends as they will keep calling me.

What about example 3? How could cashier perceive I was questioning her in my head if I didn’t say anything out loud?

As has been pointed out, desperation is not a good look. The best way to attract a girlfriend is to have one that you're crazy about. When you have a partner that you are absolutely head over heels in love with, you are happy and joy is seeping out of you. THAT is very attractive and is the opposite of desperation.



You seem to lie to yourself an awful lot. You also seem to be okay with your tendency to lie to yourself. How has all this lying to yourself been working out for you? Have you considered changing the script to something along the lines of, "So I can be truthful with myself..."?



Not sure how this constitutes a 'step' but okay.



In my opinion, if you know that you are lying to yourself or pretending, this cannot work. How much satisfaction can you really get from interactions that you have to wrap in self-dishonesty?



Again, you try to b.s. yourself and then you're confused about why you're not satisfied with your interactions. Here's why you're not satisfied (in my opinion, of course): You're not satisfied with these encounters because they are not satisfying encounters, period! You tell yourself they are, you try to pretend that they are, but deep down you know that they aren't and no matter how much denial you bring to the table, it's just not enough.



I'm losing track of how many times you've referenced lying to yourself in this one post! You constantly lie to yourself and you're constantly unhappy with the results. Insanity is doing the same thing expecting different results according to none other than Einstein.



Maybe it is time to make a new mistake. You seem to be making the same one over and over and over... By the way, I do that too - I think most of us do. It is said that the chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they're too strong to be broken.