The manipulative socialisation of men in western society

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This happened to me when I was growing up/developing. You were assumed to be gay (and that was supposedly a bad thing) - if you weren't a horn dog all of the time, ready for a biological woman's needs to be met.

This is why biological men are awkward with biological women & why biological women think they are entitled to sex, often (they start being passive aggressive in relationships when they are rejected in their advances, sometimes).

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/first-blush/202201/why-its-hard-men-say-no-sex

Yeah, I agree. I don't like the expectation or stereotype that men must be horndogs that would always say yes to sex, and would automatically have sex with a woman just because they're attractive.

There are a lot of men out there who do want to get a know a woman and feel comfortable before having sex. Some are even demisexual where a strong emotional connection is necessary.

Yeah. I find the stereotype offensive to be honest & contrary to my intellectual nature. I have extremely high inhibitions and only really become attracted to females once my love portal is initiated, at which point, I have difficulty keeping myself contained - or have done in the past, anyway.

I cannot find the article right now, but women pay a small penalty (around 30%) for being unemployed whilst dating. It is more like 85% for men.

Obviously we are just discussing western society here. It is completely different in the Middle East, the Far East etc.

Yo

Trust and that strong connection [absolutely] needed here.

Great thread idea! I hate this stereotype too. We get slighted for only wanting sex all the time, but often the other parts of us aren't recognized anyway. I had a girlfriend once who would pressure me for sex when I was sick and not interested. Because even then I must be in the mood, right?

Not to mention the idea that we must chase, chase, chase...as if we have no internal value, ourselves.

Humans love putting people into those groups, stereotyping and making cookie-cutter copies out of one another. I guess it makes it easier for that friend or foe identification, but that's not much use when most of us are doing those peaceful things throughout all of our lives, and people use it when it shouldn't be used.

Sure, sex is important for romantic relations, but on its own, it's basically nothing when it comes to a relationship. It's simply the desire for procreation, which is one part of it all. Protection is actually more important when you go back to those base instincts of partnering. Then all the emotional and personality stuff that are all equally as important as one another.

Yeah, I need to see that forever stuff if I see sex there, because that's how I am. It's alright if others aren't, but I'm not them either.

Not really, I could relate.
Even if they are against premarital sex, the « he’s probably gay » assumption is very common everywhere.

I was assumed to be gay by women few times because I never « ogled » at them in a way. One of them was a coworker who was like « I never caught you looking in that way ». And that coming from a 5-times-praying-a-day conservative muslim (not veiled tho) girl.

It is a joke, isn't it?

Each party (in a two-human relationships), should be equal parts chasing. If it is all one way towards the woman - with the man chasing all of the time, then the men are slaves in any situation, whether it be dating or marriage.

Misandrist fembots might think this is paradise - and it is, for them. But actually, not only do men lose out, women with less extreme, radical left views are marginalised too, by being socially outcast, when they do not agree to this way of thinking.

I do not share the same experience, which of course doesn't mean that yours is invalid.

From my perspective, there's a certain stereotype of "manliness" which is cultivated by both men and women - of some kind, at least. It involves a lot of different aspects, from constant sex drive that you talk about, but also perceiving doubts and concerns as a weakness. Then there's a stereotype that a man must be always a "leader" and have strong, dominant personality. Then there's aspect of physical fitness. For many, even a level of physical aggression is desired i.e. instead of trying to negotiate and reason with people, punching them in the face straight away.

I think this stems from a role of men in primitive societies and it is still "hard-wired" in brains of many humans. So naturally, there's also certain percentage of women who think along these lines.

I have always despised this model. Even when it comes to acts of hostility, from my perspective calculated acts of psychological violence are way more efficient in making your enemies lives miserable, than physical one. Brawling with someone is primitive and doesn't require an intellect, most living organisms can do it. I may or may have not caused trouble for some people whom I've been on wrong footing with in the past

I have always wanted a right to have doubts, to hesitate, to feel bad, to complain - I never signed up for being a hard-as-rock male stereotype.

In fact, it were feminists I've met, who first showed me that it is nothing wrong. That patriarchal model of perceiving genders and their roles cuts both ways, trying to forcibly show people into categories, denying them a right to be human beings they truly want to be.

Of course, there are radical feminists who are simply nuts in their hatred towards men, but I've never met one in real life. All women with feminist perspective were supporting an idea of perceiving everyone as equal beings instead of one gender getting a sort of revenge/dominance over another. They all were in relationships with men who were the opposite of a "dumb muscle" type. Also, women I've know better and had any kind of understanding with, from loose friendship to being lovers, in general were always way more accepting of my "geekiness" and quirks than men, even my "temporary friends" were, too.

It is a bit sad that there were men I knew, who obviously struggled and choked with the male personality stereotype society imposed upon them, but played along anyway, at their own expense.

And yes, there are women who desire this less self-reflecting, less intellectual and more impulsive/primitive men. But there's enough of women out there to not worry about it, really. I've never paid attention to them. Why? Even if you have a preference for a certain stereotype of mainstream female attractiveness, there are girls who look like that and are of higher intellect. Chasing after a stereotypical "dumb blonde" if you don't fit her expectations makes no sense. Plus, even when it comes to sex, someone being hot doesn't equal to them being a good lover. Like, I was once with a very hot girl who wanted to have sex only in a missionary position, not even doggystyle. Oral was off the limits, both ways. She was disgusted by a thought of mouth touching a genitalia. So, she was a very attractive partner, but sex with her was rather boring.

Sex was a complementary thing to a romance and supporting each other anyway, and was always based on respect of mutual preferences and boundaries. No "chasing" needed whatsoever. However, I like sex, but was never obsessed with it - so I can equally adapt to a partner with higher needs and to one with lower libido. However, when I didn't felt like having sex at the moment, I always simply said so and there was no drama about it.

Most girls I've been with were more into intellectual type and were very intelligent themselves. In one instance, a woman married to a "stereotypical manly man" was cheating with me on him for two years, even though people think that opposite is usually true. Only in case of my first serious relationship, a girl has clearly wanted to "mould" me into a macho/party animal/alpha male after some time of being with each other.

But I've had two instances where women whom I wasn't in relationships and thought of them only as friends turned hostile because they were expecting a move on my end and I am hopeless at reading signals, so didn't even realise they were interested in me romantically. So there's definitely the truth to part about aggression when being rejected. Still, I think this applies to men, too, seen plenty of examples when guy called a girl "slut" if she rejected him and started to tell people awful lies about her, with particularly aggressive behaviour if he was rejected in favour of a man whom he considered lesser to himself.

Me and my wife form a partnership in which we play to our strengths and try to split responsibilities in a fair way. I am more involved in taking care of kids, for example and she drives a car while I cannot because of my TLE and tendencies to zone out sometimes. Back when I was learning how to drive, I wasn't seeing road signs all the time, because I got way too focused on the road ahead of me. People are usually puzzled when they see that she is the one driving, they are also puzzled when I take kids to a nearby playground by myself. Sometimes it is just me and like 10 mums, lol.

Over the years, I am shaking off more and more of things that form social expectations when it comes to gender roles. I tend to think about people as brains first and I value them based on their intellect alone. I do have preference for female body type when it comes to sexuality, though. But these days I wouldn't have a problem in dating a trans-woman, if she would be after gender confirmation surgery - a penis is a turn-off for me, but knowing that she was born with XY karyotype is not. However, ten years ago it was a different case and my response would be "hell, no". But I was still shackled by what majority deems as proper and acceptable. Nowadays, I am not.

That's me. I do watch porn some but I have no interest in casual sex & I'm OK with being in a sexless romantic relationship, I can deal with things myself. Being in a serious long-term affectionate & loving romantic relationship is WAAAY more important to me than having sex. I also don't conform to the male stereotype in other various ways & the combination has caused others to assume I was gay. It was really awkward when I tried asking a woman out & she made a comment about how she thought I was gay It's ashame & pathetic that both genders are expected to fit a certain mold in order to be attractive or even just accepted sometimes. Guys are aLOT more than sex obsessed pigs & women are NOT attractive trophies that must be won & can be replaced when the guy is able to "win a better prize".