How important is intelligence...

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Pugly
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31 Aug 2007, 5:05 pm

This is without question one of the biggest criteria for dating someone. Just that their intelligence is somewhere in the same range as mine. I don't want to come off as condescending or anything... and I am not that brilliant... but being right in line with my intellectual level... there is attraction in that.

Not so much that I want to reject someone just because they aren't close to me in intelligence... but I know communication will always be a problem... and trying to explain something that is perfectly clear in my head. May be trouble...

Also, going the other way... I don't think I would have too much of a problem dating someone more intelligent than me. But I don't know how much they would want to deal with it. I am not a competitive fellow, so there would be no battles along those lines. But I don't know how much they would want to deal with me misunderstanding them...

One thing that might be a problem... is that socially... well I'm pretty poor. In fact, really poor. And the level of intelligence at my social level is pretty low. So it would be sort of difficult to find someone similar to me socially... at least comfortable with me socially... but still be somewhat philosophical.

Perhaps I can just find an unemployed philosopher... they usually congregate on the street corner right... :?:


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techstepgenr8tion
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31 Aug 2007, 5:16 pm

You know, they have to have some but then again I've met girls with literally flat 95 or 100 IQ's who I could hold a good conversation with. I really think its all about how a person's moods, preferences, and ideologies line up. Someone could have a great deal in common with you even if they don't have the same level of the traditional book smarts.

Either way it can be a double-edged sword, lack of intelligence in the sense that if you can't relate to someone or they can't relate to you there's really little hope in changing that fact. Intelligence can be a problem in the sense that if your real headstrong and opinionated you could prejudge the heck out of eachother's opinions, decide that your the one who's going to be so good for them and change them in so many ways, and its part of why no matter what I end up with - average, high, or even low-average IQ I'd really want a girl who's on page with me in the most important ways.

Also I still really maintain that wisdom's where its at, intelligence is good but I think its wisdom and depth that can make a less snappy and intellectually speedy woman still very attractive to me. You'd be amazed also just how much nonverbal interplay has an effect on how someone else makes you feel and how you make them feel, all the things that you'd think should matter could go completely out the window if that's really intact.



Pugly
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31 Aug 2007, 5:27 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Either way it can be a double-edged sword, lack of intelligence in the sense that if you can't relate to someone or they can't relate to you there's really little hope in changing that fact. Intelligence can be a problem in the sense that if your real headstrong and opinionated you could prejudge the heck out of eachother's opinions, decide that your the one who's going to be so good for them and change them in so many ways, and its part of why no matter what I end up with - average, high, or even low-average IQ I'd really want a girl who's on page with me in the most important ways.


That's true, some of the worse people to be with... are those that are so arrogant regardless of intelligence. I despise those who really are dumb... but are always hyper critical of everything. You can eventually show that they are wrong though... so it isn't too bad. It just takes some effort.

On the flip side, someone who is intelligent but arrogant. It would be slightly better... since you can usually rely on their ideas. But if you ever have a disagreement... watch out. If they set in for the long haul... ugh... hate to be in something like that.

One bad thing... you probably come across people who are too prideful... the higher up on intelligence you go. I think...


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31 Aug 2007, 5:52 pm

Bare with me,the following may contain contridictions that defy logic....

I think one problem with relationships is trying to find one person who meets ALL your needs.I think this is especially tempting to those of us with AS who dont like to have "alot" of social relationships.These kind of relaationships seldom work because one person just cant often meet all our needs.When we expect them to,we are often disappointed and end up blaming the other person.(speaking from experience).I had many BF in college who were great guys.They treated me well,they werent into the ususal mundane things I found in most NT's(love of sports,movie stars and TV).They werent "intellectuals" but had basic common sense and a willingness to learn some new things.But.....I would eventually become bored with their company because they didnt have the interests in reading,learning,contemplating,that I did.They werent particularly creative in the things they thought or did.I am average in intelligence but I have a deep desire to learn that I found absent in them.The problem really wasnt theirs but mine.They were my "best" and only friends.I was expecting them to meet these needs instead of finding them in other relationships,(this was precomputer) and excepting them for the positive qualitites they did have.(We often had fun together,they were faithful and caring).


It does help to share interests but more important to share ethics and future goals and the ability to enjoy each others company.I'm not saying you would be happy with someone who spent all their time reading romance novels but you can get the majority of your intellectual stimulattion in other relationships.It helps if you like to watch the same "type" of movies,read similiar books,share musical tastes...but you dont need a clone of you to be happy.My current relationship is with someone who does not share many of m interests(he is pertty bright,though),but we do share some over lapping interests and we have learned to share these to bond.Then he goes and does his "interests",I go do mine and we meet back in the middle to reconnect.
It works pretty good.


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Todd489
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31 Aug 2007, 6:28 pm

It doesn't matter if they're incredibly smart or not. If they have the patience and willingness to listen to me then they'll become smart. Someone who's already smart but completely refuses to listen to my reasoning for anything would be much worse.



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31 Aug 2007, 8:07 pm

It's not possible for me to be attracted to someone who can't keep up with me in conversation.



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31 Aug 2007, 8:15 pm

I would much rather date someone who is intelligent. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that she has to have a college education, although it would be nice if she did.

Tim


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31 Aug 2007, 8:35 pm

Intelligence is important to me, I think.
I would need someone with a reasonable degree of intelligence and insight, and with some overlap in interests.


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31 Aug 2007, 9:16 pm

Pugly wrote:
One thing that might be a problem... is that socially... well I'm pretty poor. In fact, really poor. And the level of intelligence at my social level is pretty low. So it would be sort of difficult to find someone similar to me socially... at least comfortable with me socially... but still be somewhat philosophical.

Perhaps I can just find an unemployed philosopher... they usually congregate on the street corner right... :?:



I dated one who worked at a gas station. . .


I've vacilated on this point for a long time.

On the one hand it's somewhat repugnant to me to label another person as less than myself in that way, especially as my intelligence seems to have been such a handicap in accomplishing things that are important to me. . .

On the other hand, one needs common ground for a relationship. . .
The first person I dated was smart in very different ways than me. . . we were both pretty articulate, but he had enormous confidence in his own intellectual powers. . . which (confidence) dwarfed mine. Over the time we dated, he came to reject things like. . . uh, books, for example. He felt that his everquest addiction was an equally valid way to spend time, and felt no compunctions about mocking my choices.

While I can't say on some existential level that EQ is less useful than reading, I now know for sure that I need someone who respects my intellect. . . and I have a hard time imagining myself happy with someone who doesn't read. To me, one of the sexiest things possible is if a guy likes my books. . .

But I think it's a trap to make it an official qualifier. . . pay attention to what's actually attractive to you, and let that be your guide. Don't say, I'm not attracted to individuals with IQ under 135; take it case by case, and be honest with yourself.

As for the socio-economic status. . . that's difficult. I'm in something of the same boat. I don't think that poverty indicates lesser intelligence, but I do think that many cultures of poverty are less accepting of the intellectual activities that are important to me, making it hard to find someone with both those characteristics in common. . . and it is very stressful to be in "wealthier" social situations. . . blending in- or, not sticking out too much in unacceptable ways- takes so much energy. I dated a frat boy once, and-though it didn't last long- I was already starting to feel as if I couldn't say anything. . . if we hadn't been geeks in HS togehter it would never have worked at all.


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31 Aug 2007, 9:54 pm

I place a very high value on intelligence in a relationship. On a personal level, I know I come across that when I (being normally tongue-tied) can grow a silver tongue and chat-up a storm with her.

Get the two chatting-up, I find out what she's all about, she finds out what I'm all about, and if there is a lot of common ground and a lot of the same ways of thinking and doing things, well then that's where things start looking good.

If she likes what she's getting and he likes what he's getting, well then we might have the right combination for it to light-up and become an item :wink:

Meeting them and dating them is a game of numbers and a game of chance. The more you play, the likelier you will sooner or later come across the one who will be Mr/Miss Right. The road to la vie à deux has its dissappointments but then too, that is reality.

Also, how's your own self-esteem? Do you really feel good about YOURSELF? Are you confident? Are you assertive? Do you accept YOURSELF for the way you are? If no to any, then you will have to deal with your own issues and straighten them out in whatever way you see fit. Remember it starts with YOU; the other people you have coming into your life are your mirrors! We Aspies have the most wonderful asset in our being very smart, we just have to use that quality in a positive note.


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31 Aug 2007, 10:06 pm

Jainaday wrote:
On the other hand, one needs common ground for a relationship. . .
The first person I dated was smart in very different ways than me. . . we were both pretty articulate, but he had enormous confidence in his own intellectual powers. . . which (confidence) dwarfed mine. Over the time we dated, he came to reject things like. . . uh, books, for example. He felt that his everquest addiction was an equally valid way to spend time, and felt no compunctions about mocking my choices.


I'm kind of paranoid that someone of intelligence will reject me, because I don't read many books. I never read fiction.

But I love understanding... and so I'll read bits and pieces of books to get more understanding. But nowadays, much can be found on the internet to acquire a base-level understanding of most subjects. So I find myself reading actual books less and less.

So, I'm kind of concerned that someone intelligent that I like, would reject me since I don't read.

The biggest thing about intelligence... and I guess this is just a personality/communication issue for me... is that I just like to sit and talk and explore ideas and generate new understanding and ask new questions. Sometimes absurd, pointless questions. I can go on and on about such things... and I couldn't be with someone who either didn't like that I do this... or completely misunderstand what I am saying... and explores with me (and perhaps is just humoring me) but doesn't really understand what I am talking about. It would be difficult to be attracted to someone like that...

And absolute IQ would be a terrible quality to rate potential mates with. So much more goes along with being intelligent.... that with out other aspects... IQ is meaningless. But anyone that revels in their ignorance... I would have to say bye bye...


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nb411
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01 Sep 2007, 12:24 am

Good discussion.

Quote:
On the other hand, one needs common ground for a relationship. . .
The first person I dated was smart in very different ways than me. . . we were both pretty articulate, but he had enormous confidence in his own intellectual powers. . . which (confidence) dwarfed mine. Over the time we dated, he came to reject things like. . . uh, books, for example. He felt that his everquest addiction was an equally valid way to spend time, and felt no compunctions about mocking my choices.


Jainaday, I could NEVER tolerate a person like that. People who insist that their personal opinions and beliefs are fact. I've known some and I hate it.

There are really two main categories that strike me in the NT women I have been with/known etc.

Type A:
Very good memory with little to no attention or learning problems and so have a very vast general knowledge. They also possess only average intelligence, like around ~IQ100. I can enjoy a chat with them especially if they are reasonably extraverted and they usually are, because they are doing most of the talking. I tend to like this because I am learning new things from them by peppering the conversation with questions. It also becomes clear before long though, that they lack the ability to process this vast store of information that they possess. They seem to think highly of themselves because they know a lot though if you put them on the spot and grill them a bit, they break. Their opinions are hardly ever their own and if they are, then they lack depth of consideration beyond the surface level. These types also tend to read newspapers and watch the news and have a sort worldly as well as local knowledge of their environment. Just I suppose what you might call "relevant" knowledge.

Type B:
Very good memory and above average intelligence. These types tend to be heavily opionated, idealistic (in a self important way) and hard headed. When they form a belief it is hard to shake it from them especially when it's irrational. They can be fun to talk to, though they are very impatient with you and don't try to explain what they are talking about. This is the self important thing. "Well how can you not know something that I do - I thought you were smart etc." They will be attracted to you because you can understand whatever they throw at you, provided they can find it in themselves to explain. Most of the time though I experience clash with very intelligent NT women. Mainly because they are not very tolerant, especially the more educated they become. They are not interested in finding out if there is more behind the curtain and will certainly miss the opportunity very often.

Quote:
So, I'm kind of concerned that someone intelligent that I like, would reject me since I don't read.


I think Pugly, you touched on the fact that an NT intellectual is not the same as an AS intellectual. We could both possess identical processing power, however we apply it differently.

You are right about the reading books, it does bother them. I hate reading fiction and feel like it's a total waste of my life. (Speaking from experience).

I am honestly not particularly excited about either type (My A/B analysis above) and I don't know what to do about it. My only solution is to look for an AS girl that matches my intelligence or a quirky NT that also does. Purely similar processing ability does not guarantee like-mindedness. Different types of people have different selective attention when it comes to taking in information and processing it.



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01 Sep 2007, 1:52 am

it's very hard to for me to find someone with the same intellegence and open-mindedness as me. God damn, are so many NT people ever stupid. FFS!



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01 Sep 2007, 3:16 am

He needs to "get" me. And if you don't understand what I'm talking about, then you definitely don't get me. :wink:



Jainaday
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01 Sep 2007, 11:52 am

nb411 wrote:
Good discussion.

Quote:
On the other hand, one needs common ground for a relationship. . .
The first person I dated was smart in very different ways than me. . . we were both pretty articulate, but he had enormous confidence in his own intellectual powers. . . which (confidence) dwarfed mine. Over the time we dated, he came to reject things like. . . uh, books, for example. He felt that his everquest addiction was an equally valid way to spend time, and felt no compunctions about mocking my choices.


Jainaday, I could NEVER tolerate a person like that. People who insist that their personal opinions and beliefs are fact. I've known some and I hate it.

There are really two main categories that strike me in the NT women I have been with/known etc.

Type A:
Very good memory with little to no attention or learning problems and so have a very vast general knowledge. They also possess only average intelligence, like around ~IQ100. I can enjoy a chat with them especially if they are reasonably extraverted and they usually are, because they are doing most of the talking. I tend to like this because I am learning new things from them by peppering the conversation with questions. It also becomes clear before long though, that they lack the ability to process this vast store of information that they possess. They seem to think highly of themselves because they know a lot though if you put them on the spot and grill them a bit, they break. Their opinions are hardly ever their own and if they are, then they lack depth of consideration beyond the surface level. These types also tend to read newspapers and watch the news and have a sort worldly as well as local knowledge of their environment. Just I suppose what you might call "relevant" knowledge.

Type B:
Very good memory and above average intelligence. These types tend to be heavily opionated, idealistic (in a self important way) and hard headed. When they form a belief it is hard to shake it from them especially when it's irrational. They can be fun to talk to, though they are very impatient with you and don't try to explain what they are talking about. This is the self important thing. "Well how can you not know something that I do - I thought you were smart etc." They will be attracted to you because you can understand whatever they throw at you, provided they can find it in themselves to explain. Most of the time though I experience clash with very intelligent NT women. Mainly because they are not very tolerant, especially the more educated they become. They are not interested in finding out if there is more behind the curtain and will certainly miss the opportunity very often.

Quote:
So, I'm kind of concerned that someone intelligent that I like, would reject me since I don't read.


I think Pugly, you touched on the fact that an NT intellectual is not the same as an AS intellectual. We could both possess identical processing power, however we apply it differently.

You are right about the reading books, it does bother them. I hate reading fiction and feel like it's a total waste of my life. (Speaking from experience).

I am honestly not particularly excited about either type (My A/B analysis above) and I don't know what to do about it. My only solution is to look for an AS girl that matches my intelligence or a quirky NT that also does. Purely similar processing ability does not guarantee like-mindedness. Different types of people have different selective attention when it comes to taking in information and processing it.


I would be careful about asserting that someone is NT or not. . . as for myself, I have no idea- other than being ADD, I have no diagnosis, though AS runs pretty thick in the family. I think a lot of people out there aren't particularly aware of their neurology. . . and I know that AS doesn't necessarily equate to being open minded.

I don't think AS and NT are the only options either. . . if we're going to categorize people by how they think- which is what an AS diagnosis looks like to me- EDIT- appears I forgot to finish this. If we're categorizing people by how they think, I think there are a lot more possibilities. . .

Also, people keep mentioning that they don't like fiction and that would be a liability amongst those who require literacy in a mate. . . I hardly read any fiction. I read classics, political, historical, scientific. .. . even math books, and whatever else catches my eye, but I generally have to force myself to really sit down with a sci fi. I know it seems that the majority of the book people out there seem to live in their Robert Jordan, but that's not what education means to me. . .

And I guess that's another important detail; there's a big difference between education and intelligence, and on some variety of levels they both matter. . .


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Last edited by Jainaday on 01 Sep 2007, 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

techstepgenr8tion
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01 Sep 2007, 12:06 pm

Jainaday wrote:
I don't think AS and NT are the only options either. . . if we're going to categorize people by how they think- which is what an AS diagnosis looks like to me-

Also, people keep mentioning that they don't like fiction and that would be a liability amongst those who require literacy in a mate. . . I hardly read any fiction. I read classics, political, historical, scientific. .. . even math books, and whatever else catches my eye, but I generally have to force myself to really sit down with a sci fi. I know it seems that the majority of the book people out there seem to live in their Robert Jordan, but that's not what education means to me. . .

And I guess that's another important detail; there's a big difference between education and intelligence, and on some variety of levels they both matter. . .


The thing I tend to find is when I go out to a house party, hang with the party crowd or meld with a group in that context my AS really never is an issue - mind you I'm very mildly effected, PDD-NOS, and after a few drinks (or hitting the dutch a few times and having a few drinks) I can have some great conversations with people including the girls who are there. I guess my ability to emotionally connect and have good conversations was never robbed of me with this, nor was my social mirroring ability - I tend to be gaze-aversive and shy on the onset if I'm sober but that's just the thing, my problems mostly just come in when I don't know the context of a situation and when you don't know people yet its very difficult to gage whether eye contact will be appropriate or inappropriate (usually what comes of that is I won't make eye-contact unless we're speaking to eachother, when we are though I think I can project a good deal of honesty and sincerity just because I'll be able to maintain unflinching eye contact, not intense or staring, but more like I'm a stand-up guy and have no hidden agendas).

I find this with women, the ones I think I tend to do the best with socially are the ones who don't put me in the context that I have been in the past at school, work, or things like that - it tends to be rigid and while people will respect me I think when I'm under a lot of stress or thinking a lot I'll come off as a little creepy; partly its the fact that when I'm sober socializing feels like its a strain and I probably put off a "I'll be polite to you, listen, and chit chat, but I can't wait to get it over with and get you out of my sight".

In general it comes down to the shape a persons conscious reality and the shape of their personality - that I think has the most to do with how someone sees me. I really think if I do end up dating someone soon she'll most likely be kind of a party girl and not pretentious, might have some social status but that's just relevant in terms of the fact that the confidence would be there so she wouldn't have the negative projections - that and these types or girls are just a lot more interesting, I can have good flowing conversations with them and I FEEL energized rather than drained by them (and they actually like a sincere guy if he knows how to chill). Its just funny too though, the crowds I might have spotted as the 'in' crowds or being kinda riff-raff as a kid, being that my friends and I have built a very altruistic and centered way of dealing with people (ie. we listen to what people say, give them the benefit of the doubt in conversations, show that we relate to em - if we do like em) they really tend to warm up to that. Yeah, don't worry, we all know sketchy people when we see em so that's not really a problem.


That adds another element too though; me having PDD-NOS, enough for me to feel it socially and often enough for it to still be a relevant force in my life. I still don't know if I'm me just because I'm milder in some regards (though in some hidden ways I sometimes think I'm VERY AS) but I almost wonder about the choices I've made as well. Knowing that I've never really fit the stereotypical mode and being that nerdy women (well at least the usual - the ADD/OCD extroverted type excluded) tend not to be feeling me and while I can understand them to an extent our worlds definitely don't connect. That's why I've realized that for me to be ever successful I'd really need to abstract my sense of self - completely leave the AS/PDD box and while I acknowledge it I still largely see myself as NT, relate to NT's like an NT, and at the same time the territories that my emotions take me in tend to be very friendly to that as well - I kinda like going to rich, novel, and lavish places in mood and in the mind; NTs definitely seem to share that with me a lot.