Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

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Maybe in many cases, but I don't lie about myself, so I don't fit in with that assessment. I'm nice, and I don't have to try to be, or pretend to be. I may be aloof a lot of the time, but that's all.

A few pages back, I made a remark based on a comment by Friedrich Nietzsche that I'll expound on here.

"What do they really want? At least to represent justice, love, wisdom, superiority -- that is the ambition of the 'lowest,' the sick. And how skillful such an ambition makes them! Admire above all the forger's skill with which the stamp of virtue, even the ring, the golden-sounding ring of virtue, is here counterfeited. They monopolize virtue, these weak, hopelessly sick people..." -Nietzsche

In a nutshell, sick people are nice. But is it an unavoidable fact that all nice people are sick (or flawed, or unattractive)? We can't infer that so readily.

Various passages of the Genealogy of Morals give me the impression that Nietzsche has drawn a picture of man as a sadistic species and then pointed, saying, "That's who we are." There is no fallacy, according to Nietzsche, because what sadists do, they do out of necessity and human nature. But there is a fallacy if he attempts to argue merely from past human actions that man must continue to be sadistic.

If a government turns a country into a violent nightmare of war and cruelty, then the people who are left weak, starving, and wounded might be 'the nice ones,' and even the only nice ones, but you can't generalize to the infinite future and proclaim that being nice, as a trait alone, in every society and at all times, goes hand-in-hand with being sick.

Maybe, one day, we will come to the noble realization of an obvious fact: that other people, like us, have a property called consciousness, which is no mere organ but a feeling of being someone, of having a point of view. To acknowledge that someone else's point of view coexists with your own is to make an intellectual leap worthy of the highest praise.

Edit: I just want to add that I haven't read enough of Nietzsche to conclude that he believes man is sadistic, but he at least writes that man is a 'bird of prey,' which may not always be the case.

My definition of a "nice" guy is one who's respectful, trustworthy, and honest.

Deeplove55
Not true about us being jerks is why we date them. Nothing to do with that. There are a lot of men young men out there who do not want a relationship or anything serious like a woman wants early on. we are just different like that so there are very few guys out there that do want something real like we do but hard to find. Which is why we date jerks we are used to them being seen and around and mostly pupulating every where we go. Its a habit like any other that we complain about but don't know - A month ago


Answerer Deeplove55:

You make absolutely no sense: you contradicted yourself 3 times in 1 paragraph.

What kinds of real things do you want, and do you expect to find it on Fling.com?

You're a perfect example of what I mean: women can do no wrong, men are to blame for all the bad in relationships.

B.S. That's sexist and discriminatory. - A month ago


Deeplove55
How to get away from it because of the bait. jerks, losers, bad guys have excitememnt and confidence and machoness about that turns us on compared to a nice guy who is boring. we want the good guy with exciting qualities, not too nice because we like a little agression. good guys are so hard to find and the very few we may lukily find aren't exciting or physically attractive. Jerks just don't treat us right but they have the look and the attitude we love in men. Good guys treat us right but we are not used to - A month ago
Answerer Deeplove55:

Once again, you're contradicting yourself, refusing to answer direct questions, and making zero sense. - A month ago
Deeplove55
Used to it and don't know how to handle it or think its too good too be true and its scary to finally get something good when for so long treated bad. Afraid we will lose this good guy so we stay in our comfortr zones but some of us learn that we have to just take that chance. Abe patient and wait. We learn if we want something fast and easy, you will get a jerk. if you want something real and right, you will get a good guy which will not be easy. - A month ago

Deeplove55
What is up with you, manafon? and this fling thing? I been off that site for like 3 months now and its off subject. We are not talking about me here. So y sound like your mad at me? you don't even know me. So what's the problem? ok, you don't understand me because you are so quick to judge. Can you get off the fling thing? that was a very long time ago. - A month ago
Answerer Deeplove55:

You use words from the English language, but arrange them in a way that makes absolutely no sense. I'm not being a smartass. I simply cannot understand what you mean. You contract yourself and you ignore the questions and points of others as if they don't exist.

Have you been diagnosed with a psychiatric or neurological disorder? - A month ago

Answerer Deeplove55:

Okay, back on topic. This is a yes/no question:

Do you believe that some women can act like jerks in some situations?

Yes or no? - A month ago


Deeplove55
But you couldn't answer my questions to you. Something is wrong with you or going on in your life because just your response to this question was mean to say that us girls are jerks to be dating jerks. ignorant answer ever seriously and for some words mispelled, I'm typing fast at times and don't go back to correct. Anyone with common sense unlike you can guess what I meant to say but obviously your intellect is low. Second, This is a forum for discussions and debates of all sorts, no certain rule on - A month ago


Answerer Deeplove55:

I guessed it was a waste of my time to try squeezing a simple, straightforward answer from you.

Oh well. I tried.

Sigh.

Good luck.
God bless. - A month ago

http://www.girlsaskguys.com/Behavior-Qu ... jerks.html

not only the aspie guys complaint about this issue..

Last edited by LePetitPrince on 08 Sep 2009, 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

QFT

And again, people keep getting confused on what it means to be "nice." This goes for guys and girls. Being nice does NOT mean being a pushover.

Amen, cos that's the last thing I am. I take no BS, and I do not tolerate mind games. I know honesty when I hear it, and I know BS when I hear it. I may have been easily taken advantage of as a child, but I had many years to learn my lesson.

I'm nice in the sense of respect, courtesy, and generosity. Once I feel that someone is trying to take advantage of me, it all stops, and I break all contact with the person. I think this might be part of why they say people with AS have problems keeping friends. It's because these "friends" are frauds and we see through it.

Perhaps the 'nice' guys that are scared off by girls taking the initiative are scared for some other reasons;

-perhaps they KNOW of a dealbreaker that they are positive will make them incompatible with that particular girl. But instead of talking to the person about it, they simply run because they are not comfortable discussing such things.

-Additionally, they may have another girl in mind and are waiting for the one they have in mind to take interest, running scared from the one that actually approaches because that is not the one they want.

-they may have been taught that women pursuing men is 'wrong' and thus their belief system causes them to reject any girl that shows signs of taking initiative. A corrollary to that is, they're afraid that a girl who takes the initiative will try to run his life.

-they may already have a girlfriend and just don't want to say.

What women look for in a guy varies from woman to woman. I know that guys with AS tend to attract girls once they get on the first date. Getting the first date is hard. There are two things I am doing, building up confidence and learning how to ask a girl out. I have two people who are supporting me. One is a guy and one is a girl. It's nice to have perspectives from both genders.

point well taken!
i think the women who date bad boys are just being stupid. they just don't realize what they're getting themselves into and they'll regret being with them in the end.
Pamela Anderson is a prime example of those kinds of women.
ever watch Tool Academy? yeah, very pathetic indeed.

^^ Seconded.

Not quite, in my experience.

I think it's more of a subconscious biological instinct. In a strictly animalistic sense, the female is the caregiver and bearer of children. The male is the protector and provider. In the same way that a (human) male is often attracted to a shapely woman (curvy hips indicating an ability to bear children, ample breasts indicating ability to nurse/feed the children) women are attracted to "bad boys". The "bad boy" stands out indicating that he is an alpha male or leader. The "bad boy" tendency to not conform to the socialy and be a risk-taker indicates that he is fearless and agressive. This translates to him being a good protector and hunter (provider).

Where the problem comes in is that, of all the creatures in the animal kingdom, humans seem to be the species that have strayed the most from our basic animalistic nature as it pertains to interpersonal relations and societal strucure. It's when these instincts and impulses make their way to the surface that we have trouble. Even if we consciously know that a curvy woman isn't necessarily more fertile or capable of caring for young (or even necessarily interested in procreating at all), she is still perceived as more attractive to/by men. Likewise, we may know consciously that the "bad boy" will quite possibly not be a good mate, he is nonetheless attractive and intriguing.

Personally, I like the shy sweet guys. In my experience, they are actually only calm/shy/reserved on the surface. These seem to be the guys who, once you draw them out of their shell are quite fiery, passionate, and exciting. Their quietness has a mystic allure that draws me in every time. I guess I get a kick out of knowing that there is soooo much more to that guy that everyone passes off as "just shy" and that his secret is safe with me. hehe

First off, I'll assume that when you say nice guy as it relates to shyness, you're talking about the introvert.

Now applying what we know about introverts and dating, things become clearer. However, there is a general rule about mating that I think applies from evolution.

Individually, our first instinct is to survive, then to reproduce. In hetero relationships, somewhere internally, the male provides the survival part and the female provides the reproduction part. This is mainly why in history, the strong male is attractive and the pretty girl is attractive.

Physical prowess was the leading determinant of a successful male. To fight off animals and such. The problem is that our biology hasn't caught up with the times. The means of survival today are different from the means of survival a long time ago. In modern times, it's about money. Isn't it fitting that the prettiest girls go with the richest guys? It's a sort of eugenics.

From what I can tell, the elements of success through history for a male has changed. Just yesterday it was brains, today it's much more about personal growth. If a girl was with a computer geek, basically, life would be pretty darn good. "Girl's guide to geek guys" was a very excellent publication that basically argued that geeks are a preferred alternative to the macho males that are outdated.

When I think about the nice guy at the bar, I see an element out of place in the universe. The nice guy has no business in a bar trying to pick up girls. Basically, it's an introvert trying to play the extrovert game. It's just harder for no apparent reason, and the results are probably less than satisfactory. The shy nice guy would have a much better chance at finding a partner through his hobbies, through his passions. The best tactic for this type of nice guy is to engage the imagination of the girl. This is almost impossible in a bar with loud music and alcohol.


Nice guys that finish last, are basically a fish out of water.

<pop-game-theory analysis>

I don't know about shy guys, but the kind of "nice guys" I see being complained about on other sites are the kind of guys who will essentially beg for sex, and be willing to do whatever a girl wants in order to get it. Essentially, they find guys who show their sexual desperation in that manner highly unattractive. Whenever women complain about that, it makes them (the women) lose lots of attractiveness points with me themselves, and here's why:

Let's put women and men onto a rough spectrum of "giving" and "taking", and for the sake of this argument let's assume it's a given that it's harder for men to get sex than anything else (emotional support, committed relationships, etc.), and that it's the opposite for women. To the extent that women want sex and men want other things, they will have it easy and therefore there's no point analyzing that possibility.

The most "giving" women are what I will call the "Playmates", because I HATE saying "sluts", which is probably the only other word that makes sense here. They are very willing to give sex without expecting anything whatsoever in return. While there are certainly men who will be willing to interact with these women in non-sexual ways, Playmates forfeit any *guarantee* that they will get anything but sex. They are therefore admirable, even if they are not this way out of altruism but out of simply being sexually very un-choosy by nature.

Somewhat less giving are the "Whores". Now, I neither mean to shame them, nor to imply that they actually are prostitutes, but any women who are willing to give sex for a "price" that is stated up-front (monetary or otherwise) fall into this category. This includes women who will have sex with guys who buy them expensive dinners, as long as the man can reasonably consider sex a "sure bet" if he in fact pays.

Then come the "Moving Targets". This is a huge, heterogeneous category of women who give and take to varying degrees in a manner that men can't easily decode. Depending on their whims, they charge a very different "price", or sometimes none at all, for sex.

Finally, we have the "b*****s". Now, I don't mean to imply that every woman assigned this label is in this category. What I mean here are women who purposefully try to trick men into giving them things constantly, while attempting to never allow any men to have sex with them.

Now on the guy side, at the pure giving end we have "Dads". Again, of course I don't mean that every father is like this toward women, but hopefully he is this way toward his children. These men are willing to give women resources, support, etc. without ever expecting sex in return.

Lining up vaguely with the "Whores" on the female side are the "Nice Guys" that many women hate, who still expect sex but are willing to work very hard for it, even to the point where they act like her puppy dog. So while "Nice Guys" are often desperate for sex, to the point where they will trade almost anything for it, the "Whores" are desperate for resources, to the point where they will have sex with almost anyone to get them.

Then we have the male "Moving Targets", who are just like the female version but in reverse.

Finally, we have the "Players", who as the reverse of the "b*****s", pretend to give things to get sex, without following through unless they absolutely have to.

Now, the "Playmates" and "Dads" don't impose costs on the system, except to those of their same gender who would prefer not having cheap competition. The "Whores" and "Nice guys" cost something, but yet in some sense they also fill the role of "public goods", by saving both themselves and the opposite sex effort by making the terms of the transaction more transparent and volunteering to give their part up front, allowing a lot of the game playing to be shortcut.

The "b*****s" and "Players" create the most trouble for the opposite sex, but the "Moving Targets" also impose a net cost on everyone in terms of time that needs to be spent socializing before either side gets what they want. To me, and probably lots of other aspies, this is a big cost. We would much rather be able to walk up to someone of the opposite sex, immediately strike a deal, and then proceed to giving each party what they want.

So when women hate "Nice Guys", they are sending one of two messages. Either, they actually like the terms of the game to not be transparent, such that each side constantly has to wonder whether the other side will give anything. Or else, they consider their gift of sex SO valuable that it is priceless, and no amount of nice things done by an average guy will make her want to put out. The first is understandably frustrating because it essentially says "I don't want there to be a an easy way out. Any guy who wants sex has to play a time-consuming psychological game, even if it also costs myself socializing time". The second scenario essentially says "no matter how nice the average guy is, he doesn't deserve sex, and he doesn't even deserve an explanation why he doesn't deserve it". So there's my answer.

</end pop-game-theory analysis>

You really have no conception of sex and love going together, do you?

Whores, b*****s, and playmates?! Since you like to use such descriptive words for us, why aren't the men called dicks, pricks, and as*holes?