Wow.......

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I'll try not to go into too much pretext here; suffice to say that I got whacked over the head with a term tonight and its definitely trouble, particularly in terms of what it opens up for me and I think a lot of people here. I know that knowledge is power, at times it takes guts to face certain things down - this is definitely one of those moments that I'm left a bit pale.

Anyway, I'm on eharmony, and I got a question something like "How would you rate your verbal intimacy skills?". It sounds straightforward for a second until you realize that there's no set definition. I decided to go online just because, I don't like to answer something like this with 'No clue what that's supposed to mean'. Anyway, in looking for that here's something else I found:

http://www.csulb.edu/~tstevens/conversa ... versations

For me this explains a lot. The problem is not that I can't broach feelings or talk about them, just that my way is completely wrong. I always noticed that despite my best intentions, despite anything, anyone who was interested - when they saw my personality a bit further - most often hit a brick wall. To me I think this is where my autism or AS works the most in concentrate; social skills - check, high empathy quotient - check, emotional language and thinking quotient - N/A, zero, somewhere in deep freeze.

The really harsh part about this is that what it conveys, that someone wants to know about *my* inner world and life - last I checked people are still pretty creepy about conformity. I don't think any girl wants me to open up and say "Well, my day to day life is spent largely thought about dealing with this neurological condition; I feel like a complete alien, like I constantly have to double check everything I do to make sure it fits the known standards, have to pretend I'm halfway not all day long just to get home alive, and in the midst of me struggling with all of this, at 29, pfft, I've missed out on so much normal emotional development and mentoring from anyone even remotely like myself that I've been left holding the bag, submerging my emotions for logical answers, and I can honestly say that in a context of normality I have no idea who the f--- I am. Better yet, at this rate I may *never*!.......So how was traffic today? Brutal I'll bet...". I could be wrong, I really hope so, but it almost seems like if your life is out of phase for any reason - you'll fail this automatically just because your not cut of the same cloth as everyone else and its one of those things where natural selection takes a stranglehold either way; either through your omissions or through your telling the truth. And please women, understand that I'm not saying this in a way to suggest that this is what you set out to do; I just think there is a lot of really bizarre stuff hidden in the clockwork of society and a lot of our inherent biases play off against other factors in ways that create some very strange eddies and whirlpools.

One other thing I've noticed on and off throughout my life; people would go into these modes where they'd be speaking in what I'd swear was some kind of American padwan. I've seen it on Myspace, seen coworkers speaking it, and its not only completely alien but its something of the variety that - you know how a lot of people get a rush of panic if they hear gangster rap? I get that panic out of what I think of as slush-talk; the stuff that's so loose and nebulous that by the time someone says a few things I can't even pin down what the words were or what it was that I heard. It seems like this is one and the same; that off-angled sort of spidery amorphous English that I'll hear from time to time. I wrote a thread a few months ago, can't remember if it was here or whether it was in the adult forum; where when I was watching some of these college movies with friends or had friend's girlfriends watching romance movies, the only way I can identify with this sort of drall or the emotional state that I need to be in, in order to authentically bring that out of myself, is really really stoned - like spit turning to Crisco and having my vision tune out like a UHF channel that's only half dialed in. Its very immersive, reality, almost folding in on itself, and everything feels like scandal and intrigue because - its something like a erotic dysphoria/euphoria combination that starts creating a feedback loop with itself - and the more out of control it gets the more people seem to like it. The funny thing was, anytime I was in the state that I just described - was about the only time I was able to feel, on a gut level, exactly what sort of emotional or structural place that my friends and other people were coming from; hardly a time that it wasn't either very eerie or jarring just how far removed I was and even am.

Hate to sound unhinged or anything, just that from what I'm piecing together; the fact that this angle of self is never discussed, talked about, or brought up in society at large as being as pivotal as it is, I find it really disturbing. At least being on spectrum I have had something to blame it on; a lot of the NT guys I know haven't been as lucky and I've seen it take its toll just from them engaging in all kinds of reckless behavior, pretty much having an existential panic because they can't control their lives, don't have the tools to change things for the better, and the only thing they can think of to keep the depression off is just go all out even to the point where its very self-destructive.


The only thing I think I want to ask the women here though, is it really as hard-line as it sounds? I really hope I'm wrong on the severity of it. Overall though, I think its something you'd find that - if you can explain it - the guys here would owe you a huge debt of gratitude; just for being able to take control of their situations or having some sort of means to work with.
At my age it feels really weird to still, at all really, have any massive whacks upside the head with new information or new subcurrents coming up but; I can honestly say that while I've always caught glimpses of this I've practically never been able to have it explained in a way that really hit on the core of what it meant and what, the bottom paragraph illuminates clearly, has to be one if not the biggest reasons why cerebral wiring let alone AS ends up being such a deal-breaker.

I can see this has unhinged you a little, and you're going to think me nutters for saying this, but this is a GOOD thing.

Because, each time we are unhinged, it makes us question everything we think is true, and this is the only way we can advance and actually better ourselves and our life understandings.

Hmm, I hate to say this but the women here probably won't have the answers, as being AS we would have the same problem as you. When I am talking to my girlfriends (all NT), always I feel like something is wrong, like I'm somehow disconnected or out of the loop, and like they're communicating on another level that I cannot begin to comprehend.

From what I have read on this site, and from personal experience, I think that both AS men and women have the problems with emotional connection you have described, and this has affected their relationships.

I actually think probably the best thing we can do about it is to force ourselves to spend lots more time around groups of conversing NT women, and try to observe and learn from them. I have always disliked being in large groups of all girls, because of that extreme feeling of alienation and awkwardness I get and the feelings of stupidity and being a laughing stock because I'm not following the undercurrents the rest follow with ease.

My impression was that feelings were relatively difficult for just about everyone to discuss. As far as I understand, in conversation it is best to break into them rather than just announce them.

I do discuss feelings, but I find that it's really easy to give someone more information than they're comfortable with hearing in this regard so I tend to place restrictions according to how much I think that person may want to hear (based on how close they are to me and what they are asking).

Hey I really liked your quoted source - great website - thanks for sharing! (Digression: What is eharmony?


I think there are a lot of women who would be genuinely interested and who can handle the truth. Well truth is hardly so bad - come on I have AS friends (okay now more like one because the other one just wants to be closed off). Opps may be I am proving your point. I would say if you can really trust someone - state the truth. Truth is always beautiful - and if the person concerned is a true friend or potential partner, they will feel privileged about your openness.



Great observation - you are very insightful.



Nothing is ever that hard lined - okay honest answer is yes. Good news, most people (including vast majority of NTs) live in sort of superficial relationships and have a wider circle of friends who meet their different emotional needs. One person can't ever meet all your needs. It is an ideal we all aspire to. Bad news, a lot of relationships break down because of this!
Does that help!
BTW I didn't quite get what you were wanting explained from the women here - sorry for being so obtuse.

eharmony is a dating website that tests you to make up a personality profile and find who is best for you based on that profile. I know because I did it specifically for the test and when I finished it was fairly accurate. The problem is when I searched there was 0 results but its worth doing just for the personality test.

I'm not trying to pull anything out of anyone who doesn't understand it themselves or wouldn't be able to figure out how to explain it. I think its really just the usual - understanding where its centered, where it comes from, what its really about, kind of what the format is; it sounds lame but at the same time if you don't have it in your past and don't just instinctively have it - it won't happen any other way than having a rather depressingly candid and logical discourse about its mechanics.

I think my own end goal with that; when I think about this sort of communication, there's no 'me' in it (I have no part of myself that feels like it can articulate itself and I feel like I have no idea how to both do this and be myself whatsoever). I know that where there's a will there's a way, with a lot of things I've changed and being able to get myself more directly onto the map with my social skills - it was looking at NT behavior and trying to become my mask (to save on energy and inauthenticity) by finding the angles that seemed to fit who I was best. This is a very similar story - the only way I'd want to do this is if I could learn a way to be myself with it, both to make it natural and of course, for the sake of nonverbals and getting what I really want out of it, have it register on a subconscious level with people who are reading it as fully authentic or about as much as they can expect out of most people.

Yeah, and I think for now anytime the verbal intimacy skills question comes up in someone's communication request I'll just follow one standard procedure - run! Not because I'm really that afraid of practicing it, just that I have to wonder when people ask for that how esoteric their definition and need of it is. If its someone who, when I look at their profile, I'm thinking "holy s--- this girl's awesome' - probably won't be a big deal. If I already look at her profile and wonder why on earth she contacted me; yes, time to just stop the questionnaire and log out.

A lot of what I'm thinking about here I'm running up against Alison Armstrong's advice on these things - if someone's not like you, don't try to be something else to be with them, the relationship will sink from what was wrong from the first moment, rather be glad of everything that doesn't work and realize how much worse it would have been if it had in fact dragged on for 5 years, 10 years, life even..... IMO that's very poignant, though I do still want to better my skills in areas like this because; I'll probably meet some great and wonderful women in my future who would have been a good fit if I could pull this off; I'd rather let who I really am as a person dictate whether something happens or doesn't rather than the lack of a skill set, that's a sea of regrets in old age waiting to happen.

Oh, okay thanks! Yeah might do the personality test, those are always fun.


Okay I am sorry, I instinctively have very intimate conversations whenever I have the emotional need to do so. Even with strangers in planes (very rarely! ) who relate back and pour their hearts out to me. May be I am just missing the point - what intimate conversations are. I thought it was just sharing your inner-most thoughts and feelings with another human being - someone about whom you have a gut feeling, that you can trust them. Most people are very nice, most human beings are decent and if you are warm towards them they just want to give you a big hug back (metaphorically speaking ). Even those whom you won't trust with other things want to be able to give you an emotional hug when you need it the most - but you have to show your venerable side! I think world is beautiful and full of loving warm people. I am so sorry I am digressing and not answering your question at all. Hopefully someone else will.

I think it is amazing that you have the desire to self-improve and so want to connect with others in truly meaningful way - which is truly admirable - I hope you get there!

Well, from what your describing I already have that. One of the things I have going for me, I hesitate to call it a virtue because it really has more to do with the quality of who you are determining whether its a good or bad thing, is sincerity. Overall I'm good at opening up, making smalltalk, feeding details (which makes people feel included), as well as taking it at a pace where it is appropriately reticent rather than being done too fast or showing insecurity.

The trouble is, while I can do that and show my warm/altruistic side, I'm still do it like a guy - the emotion is inbetween the words, its tone, its inflection, its more like abstractly hitting at the underlying aspects but letting body language carry the rest.

The idea I'm getting through from the article above is while cerebral sharing of emotion and that sort of bonding and connection is good (mainly for friends of the same gender or making friends IRL) its too weak of sauce to make romantic relationships and I've noticed that when it comes to interest from women, quite often when a guy takes this emotional angle and approach its even a step beyond inappropriate - its gross, he's a bit of a loser, and they move on to a guy who can sort of 'cooh', schmooze, and get into that other language. Its really like a complete other reality, if I'm understanding my observations right its one that many women are coming from, its their center, and they feel strained, uncomfortable, getting a migraine from how much they have to be someone else - when dealing with guys who have a cerebral grip on their emotions or even other women (with possibly a spectrum meme or two) who have a more cerebral center of gravity.

Part of the big misconception is that people who are cerebral are somehow emotionally stunted, emotionless, or just can't feel appropriately, really its more like the cerebral types have very rich emotional lives but like to articulate their emotions differently; if they're flirting, kind of like in a movie, they'd rather be sly or let the nonverbals do more of the flirting and intimate aspects rather than melt into a pool of mush with the other person. That misunderstanding I think alienates them a lot and when its profound enough its hard to call it; whether a lot of people are just too into themselves to have proper empathy (the emotional based intolerant of the cerebral) or alternatively this kind of communication and wiring may be so vital that its the cerebral who are quite literally inappopriate and wrong for being themselves; nature doesn't seem to care much for justice or kindness.



To tell the truth, I'm just real sick of having my own sense of worth as a human being (my very right to draw breath sometimes) being inseparable from my performance. Its a distortion of reality and its a bad one but, when people are stuck thrashing in a void with no control over certain aspects of their lives - who do they have to blame but themselves, its the only place your really allowed to take it.

Allright Tec,

Right on for stepping up to another level of self actualization. From my experience in the social world and also the situations of woman speak I have come to realize a few things. Whne it comes to talking about intimacy, pillow talk is key. Pillow talk is that simple light hearted "I love you and your ideas" stuff. I mean it is about as strait forward as anything. But for the emotional connection it is not going ot happen, for us it just seems to be severed.

I talk with people and sometimes find myself completely ethousiastic about them and everything they have to say and then other times I could give less a f**k. How does this work?

No clue but I have learned to just say to myself "I don't care". I say it over and over until I believe it. Truth is I am not a serial killer just emotionally detached. This may not be valuable in romance but it certainly works when it comes to leadership or anything requireing true "omnipotent" abilities. Being a manager in a large company for example.

The next problem is when you worry about the inability to do something it amplifies. This amplification messes everything up, it is like you are setting up the launch for failure. In the case of intimate talking it is just about how far are you willing to force yourself. You must force yourself to break these walls installed by internal wireing. It is like when you have crossed wires, most people would give up and toss the thing out. But an experienced electrician would begin to guess and check until he found the correct combination. He would look at the wires and their sources and he would follow his instincs as well.

I will try to explain this better when I am able but for now hope this helps and does not appear as utter BS or worse gibberish. I know if in person I could explain with my gestures and voice but it is all good, for now back to the Chargers game.

Oh yeah also, I know too many functional stoners to say that being stoned is a bad thing. Myself being one. Getting high is like a gift from god, some might say literally

It was only when the big tabacco and alcohol companies began lobying that we had bans initiated. Sadly it became worse in the 50's and 60's. The 70's conservatives lost all hope in it when hippys became a massive movement and now a days we are just sti\uck with the "money grubbers" again. Hopefully with our new president and new college students actually caring about things like politics we might get good old Canibus decriminalized. When I can smoke a joint like a cigerette and not worry about cops, that is the day you will see me a fully functional citizen in America and the world.

-Zane

Yeah, I'm not really much of a believer in that dichotomy. For me its the opposite, I'm far worse off caught unprepared. Thinking about it and probing the realities of it, like its been for anything else in my life - is about the only step forward because it gets my mind prepared to take it on instinctively and take it on in such a way that it authentically fits me; it lays the groundwork for breaking up the neurological road blocks.

I'd like to see what you're saying but to be honest, your vocabulary often goes over my head. "Cerebral" people for example. Maybe it's cuz I'm still in public high school or that I'm tired right now or something. Perhaps someone could explain it to me and other people what you're trying to get across and then you can get more replies.

Tech, I am your lead cheerleader here (as well as Zanes). I think you are cute and have a lot to offer. Perhaps you can find your match here without all the emotional explanations. What are you on the Myer's Brigg's test? Maybe you can find a suitable match on WP.

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

Sample conversations from my happy marriage:

Him: "You still love me baby?"
Me: "Yup! You still love me?"
Him: "Yup! Still happy to be with me?"
Me: "Yup!"
Him: "Yay!"

Me: "You mad at me, honey?"
Him: "No. Why?"
Me: "You look mad."
Him: "No, I'm just thinking about something."
Me: "Okay."

Him: "You mad at me, honey?"
Me: "Mm-hmm."
Him: "Why?"
Me: "<reason>"
Him: "Oh. Sorry, I wasn't trying to do x, I was trying to achieve y."
Me: "Hmmm... okay then."

This kind of thing isn't enough for neurotypicals. They need a lot more. I don't know what they need, I don't know why they need it, and I don't know how to give it to them.

I couldn't be happy in a relationship where this wasn't enough. Neither could the other person, obviously.

I'm really convinced that finding a compatible person is key. For a relationship to work for me, I had to find someone else who likes to keep it simple.

Even if dope helps you understand the other way, let's face it, you can't stay stoned ALL the time.

Its a trust and comfort thing, I definitely understand that. Beyond that however, I really have to wonder - when someone needs loads of that - I mean like you just said, way above and beyond keeping themselves together for the other person's benefit, if someone has to fight that hard to keep trust in the other person, did they even make the right decision?

I understand the gender communication issues in that women want to here social detail when asking questions, as its symbolic of whether your trusted or liked - that's not a problem. However, I don't know, if people constantly need to have their trust and insecurities assuaged, if that's just an unfortunate definition or normal, or if it really is just a large enough minority (maybe majority out where I am), or if it really is something that women intrinsically need. Its very gray area, at least for someone who's outside of the situation, and of course its not only very poorly represented but when it is it seems like claims contradict almost as badly as the news .

On the bright side though - life's full of puzzles and challenges, I don't think I'll ever get bored. I just hope my liver can keep up with the whiskey involved .

good luck

Last edited by Magnus on 04 Jan 2009, 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.