An article on "bullycide"

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I hadn't really thought much of this in connection with my own beliefs on the subject, but I was raised Catholic. I left the church a long time ago but maybe, probably, they've influenced my beliefs about suicide. Granted, at one point it became so much to bear that I tried anyway. But I truly believe that my view of suicide as being simply wrong kept me from trying sooner, and from trying again after.

mds_02 and PersephoneX

Regarding anger, the thing is I'm having trouble right now trying to calm myself down after reading those stories. That's why I didn't respond right away. I'm not trying to exaggerate, but I don't think I'm incapable of murdering someone in a blind rage. If I ever happened to witness something like that I don't know what I'd do. I can't quite comprehend it, or even see those kids as human beings. I just can't relate at all to someone who would do something like that and that makes them irreconcilable monsters to me. Maybe I'm a monster myself. It's just like taking a massive sledge hammer to my faith in humanity. I really don't know how to deal with it. Not that I've ever experienced anything quite that extreme.

On the topic of suicide I really don't have much left to say. I can see how your opinion is shaped by your experiences, but I have trouble internalizing it. I just see myself as a realist and admit that there are horrible situations that cause so much pain that you just feel like you must place blame somewhere and it really isn't objective or rational no matter how much you try to convince yourself. I don't really see it as possible to be rational in some cases. My desire to see people like those who did those things to you dead certainly isn't rational.

Murder is totally natural. And in some cases it would also be rational.
The only reason why we as humans don't do it in contrast to animals is, that our evolution has reached a point where it's more useful to live in a society and that means to benefit from each other. Such a society can also handle parasites who don't do anything for the society. But it can't handle people who cause damage on the mutual "spirit".
So if the police won't help you and you are totally convinced that somebody causes damage it's totally legitimate to do self justice and eliminate this person. (for your reality, maybe you are wrong in the long run, it has also to be a rational conclusion, if it's done because of hate or other emotions you can't be right) It's even social. Because you are not the only one who is damaged, it's everybody around you who is damaged too.
It's fine that murder is a taboo, otherwise it would lead to chaos but I don't consider it a sin if it prevents more damage than it does. And you do have to consider also if it is worth to go to prison because of it.
To me, anything is legitimate as long as there is a good reason for it. If I would have to shoot a friend of mine to save three others I would do it. And it would be pretty silly to not do it because of some irrational moralistic nonsense.

The reason I see anger as helpful is because I didn't start getting better until I let myself get pissed at the people who'd wronged me, and at the world for letting it happen. This allowed me to stop blaming myself for the things that had happened. And now, while I feel I had every right to be angry, I am learning to let go of it. I believe now that anger, rather than self-loathing was the correct response all along, but I am slowly learning that I don't need either anymore.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to stop awful things from happening. But, sh***y things are always going to happen to people. No matter how much of it we stop, no matter how many people we punish for it, there's always gonna be some scum just waiting for their chance to f**k up someone's life. And there are always going to be people who do not have anyone around who care enough to help or, in most cases, people who care but just don't know how to help. So I think we will always need to teach people to be strong enough in their own right to deal with the absolute s**t that life can bring.

(trimming the quote tree a bit)

Ah, I see what you mean. On that front, I'm rather fond of whale calls and pictures of cosmic phenominae. Also, despite the whole getting hit by lightning thing, I love thunderstorms. Also, my thread is called "Camping.." and is in the Random section if you're looking.

And yeah, trauma is absolutely the right word. Every doctor I've seen for my Asperger's and everything has told me that my PTSD and anxiety are far more disabling to me than being on the spectrum. I don't think they meant that that's the case for everyone, just me.

Furthermore: I'd quite enjoy having a friend here(or more).

I really am of the opinion that individuals are the best judges of their own coping skills.
Certainly more than anyone else.


I really don't think so- I would far rather my parents or my boyfriend kill themselves than subsist in any situation which would make them so much as consider it. My mother's been in just such a situation, driven to the end of human endurance with chronic physical pain, and I promised I would help her end it, if it came to that, and it was an honor to do so.
And, to be honest, where are all these people who would supposedly be "shattered" when the person is in so much pain?
To imply people who consider suicide are always surrounded by crowds of loving friends and family is somewhat silly
I don't consider it very loving to prefer someone desperate to die not kill themselves just so I can pretend all is right with the world.

The individual is the judge of what's "necessary", not those opining about his or her life.


I don't find it particularly wonderful, just a fact. It took just such an incident before the individuals involved took me seriously and changed their behavior. That wasn't my intention, at all, but that's what happened.

No, it's "proof" that the situation which prompted me to attempt it changed, BECAUSE I attempted it. Had it not, I would have immediately made another attempt, and been more successful.

Suicide was the only answer- the "situation" was my being completely dependent on and controlled by abusive caretakers, who were judged fit to be in such a position several times in court.

I'll repeat myself: if ever I'm in just such a situation again, with no possible way to end it through other means, I'll attempt to kill myself again.

The chorus of "coulda, woulda, shoulda" about other people's life choices are offensive to me, having subsisted for quite some time myself in agony before I resorted to that.

ValentineWiggn, mds, a little devil's advocate on both sides here, if I may:

A good phrase I've heard used when someone feels as if judgement is being passed on them is "You're not me; you haven't paid my bills." No one has the right to judge the level of pain another feels. So I can understand how someone saying "oh you're strong enough to deal with it" can feel like an invalidation.


Now, that said...

I don't think mds' goal here is to make people feel bad about being suicidal. I believe that, having been there himself and coming out of it, he likely found a reserve of strength he didn't know he had. Also, I think he's actually being kind here: he thinks of us as good people(and likely most folk as good folk), and sees it as a tragedy when someone hurting that much is no longer with us, as he perceives it as wasted potential.

Anyone who has pulled themselves away from suicidal thinking for good likely does see the world through that kind of filter: they see value in their life now and going forward. The good ones likely see it in others also.

Basically, I don't think mds is trying to judge or invalidate anyone. I think he's trying his darnedest to raise others up. That he has not succeeded in doing so for you should not be held against him.

Furthermore, we're most of us Aspies here. Self-expression is one of our weak points. This is an especially sensitive topic, especially since we're all used to those around us invalidating us. So let's all give each other the benefit of the doubt instead of getting defensive, yes?

Sagroth, thank you! You've put my thoughts into words much better than I have.

Valentine, I didn't mean to deny the amount of pain you've been through, and if it came across that way then I am truly sorry.

No, I cannot judge any individual's ability to cope. But I think that people are stronger than they give themselves credit for. And that depressed people especially can fall into the trap of thinking of themselves as weak when truly they are not.

I believe that life itself is the most precious thing in the world and that, even for people in great pain, it is worth fighting for.

I guess that just goes to prove that everyone is different. I myself have no trouble feeling angry towards what I know is unjust. Anger can be justified, but having hatred and desire for revenge consume me is just as awful as self-loathing. Some anger can be helpful in learning to be more assertive, but it definitely isn't a substitute for genuine self-confidence.

If you've been through trauma and abuse that's truly frightening anger might be suppressed as a self-preservation mechanism. I can see how someone might even be forced into believing their own abuse is justified and deserved if it seems like there's no escape. Or your life is a surreal situation where all you know is abuse. Then there's no way to face reality without getting angry.


What I was trying to say was that loved one's committing suicide is another one of those sh***y things that happen in life. There's always going to be some people who just can't handle the cards they're dealt in life.

I agree, I just think there are far more people who believe that to be true of themselves when it is not. Just because none of us are in a position to determine who exactly those people are doesn't make it less true. And I find it an absolute tragedy that they are dying because our society is so afraid of offending some that they are not willing to show the rest that they really are strong enough to survive their problems. And while I believe that symapthy for these people will always have a place, being blindly uncritical of their decision only reinforces the sense of helplessness and hopelessness in the minds of others prone to that sort of thinking.

To someone living with the worst kind of depression this sounds like an incredibly irrational statement. You have to have access to positive emotions (i.e. have a brain that produces the correct biochemical response) to believe this. I'm just looking at it from a scientific perspective. The feeling that something is worth fighting for, even against all odds, is created by a certain kind of dopamine response that may be missing in someone who is severely depressed. Why should someone be forced to persist when for the vast majority of their time pain (emotional and/or physical) greatly outweighs every other feeling? What you're preaching is a catch-22. In order to want to live despite being subject to incredible suffering, one can't be truly depressed in the first place.

+1

Although I don't believe the situation need be one of chemical depression, as opposed to situational.
There are people subsisting in horrific environments of various types of abuse, far, far worse than anything I've had to endure-
someone for whom there's anything remotely in sight to live for isn't by definition going to find themselves with a gun in their mouth (or whatever the case may be- straight razors were my exit strategy, but those are a lot less reliable). "Life is precious" is a bumper sticker, not anything meaningful to someone in misery.

Insisting that depressed people should buck up/deal with it/jump through X, Y, Z hoop is in ignorance of the last-resort desperation that suicide is by definition.

I do not believe that all of one's core beliefs disappear or change when one becomes depressed. Which is why I advocate ingraining that belief in personal strength, and the willingness to look for other solutions (even if the person does not know yet what those might be) before the world has a chance to break a person down.

From my personal experience, there have been long stretches in my life where I wanted to die. It was my belief that suicide is wrong (which probably came from my Catholic upbringing, even though I had rejected that faith long before) that kept me alive. True, at one point even that wasn't enough, but without it I'd have tried sooner and I'd have tried again as soon as I'd failed. Even if what I advocate teaching is not enough to help a person's depression on it's own, it may be enough to keep them alive long enough to find another solution. And that's good enough for me.

Sometimes it's not in issue of whether they can handle the cards they are dealt. It's more an issue of whether it's truly worthwhile to them to carry on suffering indefinitely with no guarantee that it will ever end. I don't think there's any way you can force someone to think their suffering is worthwhile. They have to believe it themselves. At best, someone who is depressed isn't going to believe it until they get medical treatment.


I don't think society is afraid of offending anyone. In any case I don't think offending people more is going to make them less likely to commit suicide. It's just going to isolate them and make them feel even more desperate.

Also, I don't think the root cause of suicide is people's thinking. It's their emotions.

well maybe they should make this medical treatment accessible, so it does not seem like less of a hassle to just deal with constant psychological pain.

+1000

If only more of society began to treat depression as a real medical condition rather than a personal character defect or a product of "flawed thinking" that can be preached away there would be less suicide. I don't think even the medical community takes depression and psychological conditions seriously enough.