Can't figure this out!

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I watch people all day lying to each other and playing their games, like they are pieces on a chessboard but aren't aware of it. I see it especially at work, especially in meetings, when it's a multi-player stupid games event. Person A is working this angle at Person B, and Person C doesn't like A and is trying to suck up to B, Person D is lying whenever he speaks and A and B are noticing but C isn't. I see it all losers.

Yawn !

Anyway thought you guys were a bit rude to Shale, I thought debate was a good thing - don't ask him to leave !

I don't want Shale to leave, but I also don't want to come here and have another NT tell me all kinds of crap. I have enough of that 24/7 x 365 x 45 years.

Maybe Shale needs to do some reading on what AS is all about...

Star

I, for one, would feel the loss if Shale didn't post here. Sure, she doesn't fully get every bit of what some of us feel. We don't always get each other either. I find that her views are almost always expressed in a non-judgemental attitude. Yeah, this one seemed a little hard at times, but certainly not bad enough for this harsh criticism.

Please, lets not turn this into an endless discussion. Shale expressed her opinion, Aylissa expressed her opinion, and I expressed my opinion.

Yes, some of what was said was a bit harsh, maybe from all three of us. Lets, please, leave it at that...

Star

Okay, I've got plenty to say here...and because I care so much I took a good half hour or more out of my work day and ended up clocking up, like, six words short of two thousand. Dayum.

Posted as a file so you don't have to scroll through ten screens worth of blather if you don't want to.

And no it's not vehement, poisonous wrath in reply either It's just HELLA LONG.

This is in response to the remarks directed at me - again, non-toxic to a degree. Somewhat sugar-coated perhaps, in typical NT fashion. Read and enjoy.

http://www.geocities.com/obsidians_doma ... rabble.txt

Sorry if I ask this Shale, but are you a guy or a girl. From the way you write and express yourself I think you are a guy, then at your profile I see you are a girl...

I would also like to explain a detail. When I talk and debate, it might seem aggressive but it is not. It is either passion, if the topic has to do with an obsession, or it is frustration and anxiety bursting out as a way to relieve stress!

Agression is an active emotion, while what I experience is more of a reaction to how I feel inside (anxiety and frustration) and this is my only way to lower the stress.

I do not say things to attack the person I am debating with but more to protect myself from what I perceive as an attack on me...

What I am trying to explain is that Aspie minds work in a different way and even though the external behavior seems semilar if not identical, the mental process that precides this behavior is totally different!

That is what makes an Aspie different from a NT. It is not the external behavior as the mental process that leads to that behavior. You, as an NT, see the behavior and perceive it as aggression, because in your mind that is what contributes to that behavior. When I see that behavior, I perceive it as fear and react on that feeling.

I am not sure if I am making myself clear, but I hope you can understad the different perpective of the issue.

The cause (agresion vs anxiety/frustration) is different while the result (behavior) seems to be identical.

Star

Thanks for the rant, and for sticking through this.

Just like the people you mention, I've been violent, but probably not aggressive - if you see the difference.

Yes, that is what I meant... being violent but not aggressive!

Thank you, too. I enjoy a good, healthy and non aggressive debate *smile*

Star
I am now off to bed as it's 3 am where I am...

The problem is that it can look exactly the same from outside the little citadel that is our own judgemental mind. AND, it is not always the case that what we see as agression, on the part of some NAS person is really not simply a reaction. The one thing that I know, is that ANY form of agression makes me slightly ill - so seeing some person approaching another and introducing themselves - it all seems so fake and wrong. Nothing harmful about what they are doing, though my reaction might be. But too me, that is agressive, while striking someone who is rude to me is not. I'm so screwed up though, that no one should listen to me, or they'll want to lock me away.

Star - thanks for the response. Seems far more rational at take two, as always

I'm a girl, but I'm a very well-trained roleplayer - often play guys. I have quite a masculine personality...my avatar doesn't help (neither does the fact that I drive the thing in it like I stole it). I imagine that may cause some confusion here more than anywhere, as I can appear very male at times. Lol.





It's interesting looking at this with a refreshed point of view. Perhaps a misunderstanding about aggression itself...it's not an emotion, it's a behaviour. Aggressive behaviour. Rather than submissive behaviour. You don't feel aggressive, you feel emotions and think thoughts that LEAD you to be aggressive

Violence and aggression...the only way you can really have violence without aggression is through self-defence. Someone takes a swing at you and you punch them back after you avoid getting hit, sort of thing. Otherwise...well, you're being the definition of aggressive if you take the first swing. Lol.

It seems there are just different triggers for the behaviour between NT and AS. By definition, several posts a page back were blatantly aggressive. The feelings behind them may have been fear and anxiety, probably offense and shock, but they came out as an aggressive response. It triggered a completely different response in me as you can see...prime example. The shock and offense response in me as you can see is more or less verbal overload To get aggression out of me, you need to trigger anger...something we NTs are very well-equipped for snap-responses in.

This being said about aggression in Aspergers...again, everyone is different, and while a few of you in this topic here may not be aggressive people by nature (Calandale, you especially seem to be calm as they come ), my man is. Blatantly. I've seen some spectacular moments...can make me quite uncomfortable, needless to say. His aggression has gotten him into a LOT of trouble. He's got the snap-anger response that I've seen some Aspies have...he's working to control it after a few rather bad incidents.

Basically - aggressive behaviour is anything that can be perceived as more than an assertive response, right through to blatant attack. Perhaps that's why a lot of behaviour we NTs percieve as aggression is so inappropriate to us...it's the wrong result for the trigger. Where we expect someone to get defensive, we get a good hard browbeating. No wonder we have a reputation for being bastards in response situations Methinks it's a case of incompatibilities in both process and reaction.

Many of us NTs that've been in situations like this - an aggressive response where we least expect it - perceive it as being easily ticked off, triggered too soon - hence, hyprsensitive. Whereas I imagine a proper anger response (what would trigger a good tongue-lashing or punch in the face from us) would be completely different from an Aspie. (speaking of which, what do y'all do when made properly furious? I'm likely to swear and curse my head off for a start, threaten to knock someone's block off...and this from a little 5'1" girl )



And meh. It takes more than a few growls to make me disappear. Sorry guys, you need a few 19-page flame wars to put me off I love a good debate, certainly uses more brain power than this wretched job...

But the point is that nearly every act of violence is one of self defence. I would even make my 'excursions' justifiable by waiting until the first blow was thrown at me. Some people feel threatend by the very existence of someone like me - and call out rude words. Enough of that pain, and it doesn't seem that unreasonable to lash out; I just never learned moderation. Likewise, people making loud noise - I know that they're not trying to annoy me (usually), but I let of a couple of warnings; if those don't work, I may get violent - seldomly directly so though, more likely in covert yet extreme ways. Simply my passive-aggressive side coming out. On the other hand, if they are readily available, I might simply snap, and take the source of my discomfort out immediately.

It doesn't seem like aggression to me though. It's just a violent reaction. Much like one who is on far too much PCP. Not aggressive, just unable to see a good way out of a situation without violence. Disproportionate response and all.

So, I fear that you read me wrong. I'm a seething mass of violence, but I usually have it under control. My wife was a tremendous calming influence on me (as I hope you will be on your man). Smoking has also helped. But even so, those who can really hurt me (or those I love, but that's still just me) do manage to trigger the rage.

Could you please give some examples...

I believe that actions speak louder than words, and ive heard many people sound mean, lie or skew the truth, but when it comes to matters and situations that...matter, well these people are kind and honest. Of course, there are always gonna be some rotten people out there, including NT's and Aspies.

Hey, war is awesome.

I don't much like how everyone here always seems to post differentiating 'NT' and 'AS' as one would differentiate 'Evil' and 'Good'. Sure, there are plenty of NTs who are undeserving of life, but the same could be said about us. I've met many unkind Aspies in my day, actually.

You shouldn't lie and cheat, but at the same time, just because others do doesn't mean that the world's doomed. It's not your fault.

Yeah. From what you wrote there...yep, that's aggression but packaged differently. Doesn't seem like it from inside, but the important part is how others see it.

Those words are such an echo of a conversation I had last night with my man. We were discussing the end to his...uh...tyre iron ordeal...and he'd said that he's a seething mass of emotion, but keeps it locked away because he can't control it when it comes forward. For day-to-day runnings he feigns emotion - acts. It looks like emotion, smells like emotion, feels like emotion, but it's a habitual act for him. But yes...he's a bit of a seething mass of violence too

That control of yours is immensely strong, so it seems. At least, on here - intellectually. You strike me as calm and rational - no surprise really.

I can see why a lot of people here say they're missing a layer or two in the shield as far as dealing with the outside world goes - triggers and stimuli have such drastic effects compared to how I would react, and how the average NT would. Loud sounds, for example...I'm actually fairly sensitive to sound, but not compared to someone with AS apparently. They irk me, sometimes cause physical pain, but I have yet to be driven to the point of anything resembling rage. Severe irritation followed by words to make a sailor blush, heck yeah. Even someone pushing me around will get a good shove back and 'What the (bleep), au...'... Different processing system it seems.

Heheh. I love this sort of debate Seeing things from other people's point of view...




Amen to that. People are unique, there is no group that can be defined as 'the enemy'. Everyone is on his or her own. But I guess since so many people have been brutalised here, it's easier to just create a solid enemy to direct the feelings of resentment at