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coffeebean
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19 Oct 2013, 10:14 pm

Even though I no longer stick out like a sore thumb, I find myself struggling to be noticed in groups with people who are more talkative, more fun, and more confident than I am. Unless I'm the one with the answers to an assignment, I'm often overshadowed.

Anyone familiar? Ideas?



hurtloam
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20 Oct 2013, 5:16 am

Yes, I guess I'm alot older than you, but I've managed to learn to behave in a way where I don't stand out, so I'm not seen as weird. However, no one notices me and I just feel lost. People often say they like me, but no one wants to have me around.



thewhitrbbit
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20 Oct 2013, 10:02 am

That's the great challenge. An Aspie can generally learn not to be hated, but learning to be liked is much harder.



DeviousDani
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21 Oct 2013, 6:30 am

You have the same profile picture as my mother has on a lot of things 8O I thought you were her!

I feel like this sometimes, assert yourself and demand attention (not literally)



octobertiger
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21 Oct 2013, 7:35 am

Hey coffee,

I suppose practice is half of it. I can clam up in large groups, and I find them tricky, as I'm not often in that situation with peers. However, if you're patient, opportunities to have more input will come about.

Here's another angle - the talkative, fun and confident ones aren't necessarily any more dazzling than you are (FFVII - what more proof is needed? :P ) - they're just giving of themselves. The problem of being shy is - it's not giving. When I shift focus from myself to others, rather than mememe, that solves the problem. It doesn't mean suddenly I'm going to be this really loud outgoing person, but I'm opening up, which means its easier for others to reach me, on some sort of level. I mean, why should I deprive people of me? That would be selfish (or perhaps merciful, I don't know!) So, it's my attitude that had to change. Then, enough confidence comes.



coffeebean
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21 Oct 2013, 8:19 am

DeviousDani wrote:
You have the same profile picture as my mother has on a lot of things 8O I thought you were her!

I feel like this sometimes, assert yourself and demand attention (not literally)


Go to your room! :lol:

octobertiger wrote:
Hey coffee,

I suppose practice is half of it. I can clam up in large groups, and I find them tricky, as I'm not often in that situation with peers. However, if you're patient, opportunities to have more input will come about.

Here's another angle - the talkative, fun and confident ones aren't necessarily any more dazzling than you are (FFVII - what more proof is needed? :P ) - they're just giving of themselves. The problem of being shy is - it's not giving. When I shift focus from myself to others, rather than mememe, that solves the problem. It doesn't mean suddenly I'm going to be this really loud outgoing person, but I'm opening up, which means its easier for others to reach me, on some sort of level. I mean, why should I deprive people of me? That would be selfish (or perhaps merciful, I don't know!) So, it's my attitude that had to change. Then, enough confidence comes.


Being other-focused is one thing I'm very good at normally, asking questions, commenting, and giving feedback and all. When the banter and the sharing of personal details break out, though, I'm often at a loss because I'm slower, quieter, and more private than the others. I become the wallflower.

The loud ones and the social butterflies are the ones all eyes turn to as soon as they show up, or so it seems.



timf
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27 Oct 2013, 1:36 pm

Quote:
Being other-focused is one thing I'm very good at normally, asking questions, commenting, and giving feedback and all. When the banter and the sharing of personal details break out, though, I'm often at a loss because I'm slower, quieter, and more private than the others. I become the wallflower.


Our society is changing. We are becoming even more superficial. I had a friend in the 90s who was very much into organized bowling. He had observed a drop of 10% in the number of people bowling since the 80s. He attributed it to the availability of video tape movies.

I think that people do not want "real" or "deep" friendships so much anymore. Most people want what feels good. Real friendships require the toleration of inconvenience, the hurt of occasional misunderstandings, and more than anything else, time.

An Aspie has the capacity to put a lot into a deep relationship and gains little from a superficial relationship. Since increasingly fewer people are looking for depth in a relationship, it would seem that at present the prospect for deeper relationships is becoming less promising.

Being "rejected" for failing to excel in the superficial (being a wall flower) may be a compliment.

If you want to "fish" in these waters, you can create a socially acceptable "bio" for yourself. This allows you to share some of your background that you have prepared for public disclosure. For example if you once worked in politics, you could get in trouble for mentioning one political party or the other. You might jump in with a statement that you had been involved with politics once because you thought that like sewer work it was unpleasant but necessary and that you came away from the experience convinced it was utterly corruptive. If someone should press you on your experience you can deflect with a little humor like, "I worked to resurrect interest in the Whig party". If further pressed you can then mention a little like you worked for a particular campaign or party. At this point the humor you used, should buy a little understanding from those of the other party.

I used politics as an example, but you can fill in almost any subject in such a way that you can have ready something to divulge that is not from the depths of your heart.

By adding another layer to the superficial you, you can carry on the banter a little longer in the hopes you may be able to identify someone else looking for depth.



coffeebean
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27 Oct 2013, 4:23 pm

timf wrote:
Quote:
Being other-focused is one thing I'm very good at normally, asking questions, commenting, and giving feedback and all. When the banter and the sharing of personal details break out, though, I'm often at a loss because I'm slower, quieter, and more private than the others. I become the wallflower.


Our society is changing. We are becoming even more superficial. I had a friend in the 90s who was very much into organized bowling. He had observed a drop of 10% in the number of people bowling since the 80s. He attributed it to the availability of video tape movies.

I think that people do not want "real" or "deep" friendships so much anymore. Most people want what feels good. Real friendships require the toleration of inconvenience, the hurt of occasional misunderstandings, and more than anything else, time.

An Aspie has the capacity to put a lot into a deep relationship and gains little from a superficial relationship. Since increasingly fewer people are looking for depth in a relationship, it would seem that at present the prospect for deeper relationships is becoming less promising.

Being "rejected" for failing to excel in the superficial (being a wall flower) may be a compliment.

If you want to "fish" in these waters, you can create a socially acceptable "bio" for yourself. This allows you to share some of your background that you have prepared for public disclosure. For example if you once worked in politics, you could get in trouble for mentioning one political party or the other. You might jump in with a statement that you had been involved with politics once because you thought that like sewer work it was unpleasant but necessary and that you came away from the experience convinced it was utterly corruptive. If someone should press you on your experience you can deflect with a little humor like, "I worked to resurrect interest in the Whig party". If further pressed you can then mention a little like you worked for a particular campaign or party. At this point the humor you used, should buy a little understanding from those of the other party.

I used politics as an example, but you can fill in almost any subject in such a way that you can have ready something to divulge that is not from the depths of your heart.

By adding another layer to the superficial you, you can carry on the banter a little longer in the hopes you may be able to identify someone else looking for depth.


It sure doesn't feel like a compliment, whether or not that's the truth. :lol:

I like your suggestion, and I've always believed that it's up to me to meet people halfway. How do two people who are looking for something specific spot each other if everyone is putting on a big public act, though? It's mostly been chance for me so far.

I talked about this to an NT friend last night who told me that sometimes people are actually relieved to be around someone quiet once in awhile, and that he's occasionally been the preferred company because he talks less. As he put it, "You've never been in a situation where someone was just a total attention whore, yammering on forever, and gone to another room to avoid them and found other people there relieved to see you?"

I honestly had to say no, I've never seen anything like that in my life. The closest thing I've seen is a side room at family gatherings during the holidays for everyone who wants to drink beer or eggnog and doze off while watching television. :?



timf
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28 Oct 2013, 1:42 pm

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How do two people who are looking for something specific spot each other if everyone is putting on a big public act, though?


For the intellectually nimble, it may be possible to engage in conversation with double entendre such that only someone else similarly inclined would decode the second meaning.

You may carve out another social niche such as always having something kind or moderating to say. There are any number of people who will jump on you for saying something even slightly wrong. Even if you wanted to compete in that arena, the field is pretty crowded. If you were to develop a reputation for being the one who conciliates, exhorts, or encourages, you might find someone who recognizes and appreciates that. However, you may have to fish a long time in order to even get a bite.

My wife and I got married later in life. We went to a Club Med in Tahiti. For meals you don't have to go out to find a restaurant you just show up and you get seated with random others. I asked a European guy once if he was a doctor because he showed marked dexterity with his knife and fork. It turned out he was a dentist from Germany who wanted to vacation as far away from other Germans as he could. At another meal a man from New Zealand asked if my wife was American. When I said that she was, he was surprised. He said in his experience American women were loud and obnoxious. He then thought of one possible explanation, he asked if she was a Christian. We are.

We met in church. However, people in churches have much the same problem. There are people who are loud and obnoxious, people who declare one thing and seem to live another, and people who are busy with all sorts of hub bub and activities. It seems almost as hopeless to find someone with depth in a church as out in the world. We met in a Sunday school class that was held on Bible doctrine. Even for people in churches, this subject can be quite boring. Over a period of two years we covered a lot of theological ground. During this time questions were asked and opinions given that allowed me and my wife to get a pretty good idea about each other.

While I would recommend Christianity to those interested in following a path of truth, churches can be tricky places with their own denominational idiosyncrasies. I suppose that any long term class might provide small venue to size up other people's character. Depending on the size of the city you live in you might find;

1. Museums and Libraries that have classes on various subjects.
2. Colleges that offer non-credit classes in the evenings for adults.
3. Leisure learning businesses that organize hobby type subjects and social functions.
4. Consulates that sponsor cultural events, classes, and clubs.

I knew a guy in Texas (Galveston) who met his wife because she decided to go places where men were. She bought a fishing pole and reel and a tackle box and went out to a fishing pier one Saturday and had men falling all over her to help teach her how to fish.

If you want to meet someone who is not pretentious, you have to select an environment where pretension will be less likely. While not every activity is going to be as brutally honest as an AA meeting, some groups will have more reality than others.

If you attend a college class on Shakespeare, you can slip a note to the teacher to ask if anyone in the class is interested in meeting after class over coffee to discuss what they had learned.

There are millions of ways to engage socially. They key is to do so with minimal risk of crashing and burning and maximizing the possibilities for success. It is also a good idea to revisit the concept of rejection. Many people think this is a bad thing. I talked with a fellow who was almost immobilized by a fear of rejection. I asked him to imagine the worst case scenario of rejection. Something like a woman climbing on top of a table to point at him and ridicule him for even the temerity to ask her out. I said that one possible reaction to such a scenario was gratitude. He might say, "Thank you for showing me your true character before I wasted a lot of time and money."

The real problem is how does a person who is not base and vulgar find others who are similar in a world that is becoming more base and vulgar every day?