Doing 'favours'

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How does an Aspie get a NT to understand that when they ask them to do a 'favour', that doesn't give the NT the automatic right to dictate how and when that 'favour' will be done.

Then whenever the aspie says; 'thanks for your kind offer, but I need it to be done sooner than that and in a different way...but I appreciate it'.

Then, the NT person calls the aspie 'ungrateful' and 'unappreciative' and they get hurt with a 'I was only trying to help' or they get really mean with;

'If you need it done by a certain time and in a certain way, then do it your bloody self".

What is the exact 'social etiquette' for these situations, as I just got chewed out again for being impatient with my brother for leaving me waiting for an hour and a half (in the rain) to pick me up when arrangements were made and HE was late (even though he was doing ME a favour).

He always seems to be 'busy doing nothing' anyway.

Then...4 hours after the incident, he is STILL yelling and fuming at me... 'how DARE you say you were just about to leave when I showed up...if somebody is 'bending over backwards' to help you, time is unimportant. I could have left you waiting there for 6 hours, because you NEED me'...what a load of bulls***.

Suffice to say, when I said 'I don't want to speak to you right now because I am not angry YET, but when I do get angry, you will regret it (or I will), so can we please have this conversation tomorrow?'

....but no, he wanted to rip me to shreds in front of my mother and sister-in-law right then and there. When I started to just turn to the wall and ignore him, he goes 'that's right...you know what? you can just f*** off...yeah you heard me, get your things and f*** RIGHT OFF!'

Then he went on to say '...and don't give me any more of your 'I have Autism' crap because it just doesn't wash with us'.

I just got up, walked away and went to my room.

Yeah, he'll cool off in a day or two and go back to 'normal', but the problem is, I never will.

I am just going to keep a low profile for a week or so, then one day they are going to wake up and my car will be gone and I would have officially joined the 'missing persons' list.

It sounds like one way or another some misunderstanding is going on:

"How does an Aspie get a NT to understand that when they ask them to do a 'favour', that doesn't give the NT the automatic right to dictate how and when that 'favour' will be done.

Then whenever the aspie says; 'thanks for your kind offer, but I need it to be done sooner than that and in a different way...but I appreciate it'."

So the NT is asking the aspie for a favour, the aspie says yes, but not exactly how the NT wants it done, so the NT gets angry that the aspie can't do it on the terms he wants. Is that the situation?

To me it sounds like your NT brother is asking you to do him a favour (which you can either accept or reject) but getting ratty with you if you say yes but can't do it all on his terms?

In that case probably best to either so 'no' to his request, or clarify what he's asking for, and explain 'i can do this, BUT can't promise it when me at this time....'

Yes, it was all a huge misunderstanding.

I refuse to talk to people when they are angry, because I don't understand why they are angry at me and thus, I cannot give a logical reply.

I must wait until they have calmed down and there's less emotion in their voice for me to become 'approachable' in any way, shape or form.

Anyway, my brother cooled down just enough for me to ask him to explain what was going on because it somehow got 'missed in the translation'....so, here is the story:

I asked my brother if he was free to pick me up from the bank and take me home after he knocked off work.

He said 'sure, I'll be there at 4...sit on the bench outside McDonalds at 4 and don't move, I won't have time to park, so just be ready to jump in the car at 4 on the dot'.

By half past 5, he still wasn't there and I couldn't move just in case I missed him and I have a phobia about being 'tied down to one spot'...at 4-30pm it rained for an hour and I was cold, I needed to piss, I was having a panic attack, but no...I was not to leave that spot'

I was also very worried; 'did my brother have an accident/breakdown'? 'did he forget totally that we made this arrangement?' 'how long must I wait before I realise that he isn't going to come?' I was stimming pretty bad at this point and I just didn't know what to do.

Anyway, when I just said this to my brother, he was like; 'and you never even thought, for one second to even ask WHY are you late, dear brother? No, you did not ask this because you were too busy being wrapped up in your own little world...your own little 'inconveniences'...it's always ME! ME! ME! you are all that matters to YOU - do you understand?

Quite frankly and honestly, I do not...so I ask 'okay, so why were you late, dear brother?'

Brother: "Because the Tax dept came into our office this afternoon to do a surprise audit and my books are not up to date. I am going to be fined with the possibility of a 5yr jail term....so then I had to ring my solicitor, my wife....and here you are whining about being cold...boo f***ing hoo".

Me: "I didn't realise and I didn't know. I am very sorry that has happened to you".

Brother: "Sorry? SORRY? how can you be sorry if you are unable to feel the emotions of other people? You need to be able to do that first to be 'sorry'.

Me: "yeah, but I can't and I thought you knew that"...

Brother: "Another thing...here you are whining at me for being late...I TRIED to phone you and tell you what was going on...tell you to catch the bus if you couldn't wait and I got no answer...so where the hell is your phone?"

Me: "I forgot to charge it last night"

Brother: "So you can see that ALL of this is your fault, not mine and ALL because you forgot to charge your mobile phone, right? so stop dumping YOUR problems on ME - that's what I am pissed off about".

Me: "Yeah, I should have charged my mobile phone, but like I said, I forgot".

Brother: "I am noticing that you are forgetting a LOT of things lately and you can't do simple things, you can't wait for people, you can't see ANYTHING outside your own little 'universe' and it's starting to be a real drain on everybody around you".

Me: "I cannot help my Autism".

Brother: "I know, I know...but what are you DOING about it? at least there should be a place you can go that have people there to help you learn and understand all these things....quite honestly, you can't really stay here, because this family unit is based primarily on the core foundation of empathy...when was the last time you went into hospital for a while?

Me: "I see my doctor once a month..."

Brother: "No, not that, I mean for treatment and psychotherapy and stuff?"

Me: "I think you have to do that, because I cannot volunteer".

Brother: "I'll look into it tommorrow".

You posted this thread after finding out that your brother was late for a work-related reason which may see him facing a heavy fine or possibly time in prison?



You asked him to do you a favour.

He agreed.

Then, the unexpected happened (as it can do) and he was unable to pick you up at the arranged time. He tried to contact you, but you hadn't charged your phone.

Then, when he did arrive, you gave him a hard time, with no thought for why he was late. He told you why, then you came here and complained about him.

He did his best, in very difficult circumstances.

You're being manipulated. This isn't how mature adults act. I say let it go and don't ask this person for any more favors, like, ever.

This is how a favor works: You need help to get a certain job done. You ask someone to help you out and do the job. The job gets done. Regardless of HOW the job gets done, thank the person for getting it done.

I've had a similar experience recently. A friend who has little musical experience other than he "sings a little" wanted me to, as a composer, co-write a couple of songs for a project. He doesn't want to compensate me for me time and effort. Fine...that collaboration for you. So the time comes for me to pass out sheet music and teach some singers the music. An hour before the first practice, he decides he doesn't like this melody or that melody, that this part isn't what he had in mind, that this here doesn't work, that this other thing sounds like it was completely rewritten, and something else was cut entirely.

Ok, you brought me in as the composer, no pay, no contract, no regularly scheduled meetings to check my progress, and suddenly you don't trust my judgment? Whatever... My rate for one on one work, usually as in instructional time, is $40/hr, $250 for a solo gig up to 2 hours, and I don't typically play with a band for under $100. The last work-for-hire I did was $250 for 60 seconds of music, and I included my work as the producer in a professional recording studio in that fee (client was a non-profit who has hired me for the last few years for fundraisers). Mess with me, doing you a favor, and I'll bury you in licensing fees so deep your songs will never see the light of day.

The flip side is asking for favors, which I'm not very good at. The trick is to not get married to certain expectations. Focus instead on getting the job done. My son is 6 years old and wants to help me in the garden. If I'm out chopping weeds, he wants to chop weeds. Trouble is he sucks at it (he's 6). The way I handle it is I have him follow me cultivating the same side of the row I'm on. The result is only a tiny bit better than if I just worked alone. But I'd be an idiot if I turned him away. The point is to let the willing help, and eventually he'll get stronger and handier with tools and it won't be such a challenge to get the results I want.

Same thing with me wife. She has better strength for working in the garden. But she's not as nitpicky as I am. So I accept the work she does and call it good. If I think she left too much loose dirt between rows, I'll go back behind her and tidy up. It might mean an extra 30 minutes for me, but I'll take 30 min over an hour any day.

But if I dislike something, I've learned to just let it go. Neither my wife nor my son really HAVE to be there...they're just being nice. They get me in the neighborhood. That way I can spend more time on details that they are either unable to help with or lack the knowledge to handle.

When people do favors for you, they are doing their best. It doesn't have to be perfect. Take time to check behind them and make corrections. I'd rather do that and have time to get down to what really matters to me the most than turn away someone with a heart to help.

Your post came in while I was typing my last reply. So manipulation may not be entirely the case... You just got caught in a kind of perfect storm...your brother's bad situation at work plus a phone that didn't work. He's not angry with you, but your issues just happened to be in the way at that point in time. He'll get over it.

No, the first post was made when I was not aware, but the second post was made when I was.

Another thing, I do not know the difference between 'right' and 'wrong', so how do I apologise?

What word can a person who is totally irresponsible for their actions use besides 'sorry'?

Whenever I apologise, NT's get highly offended...moreso than if I tell them to 'eff off'.

So how does an aspie apologise?

They are looking to have me committed at the moment anyway.

Thank you very much for that too.

My family have told me that if I do not know how a favour works, not to even ask anybody for them in future, so I have decided to go that way. People only do 'favours on specification' if there's some kind of financial reward, or else they just tell others to 'go screw themselves' anyway.

So, I will save up my money and buy 'favours' from professional people who have the ability to 'realise my visions' because I am paying them to do so. Without money, people just switch off.

I've also decided to explore more of the 'community-based' help and just take advantage of THAT when I get into trouble - Community Transport Scheme, Homecare, Meals on Wheels etc...there are many 'respite services out there, even if there isn't any respite care.

I also don't appreciate people taking 'sides' here either.

"Your brother is right and you are wrong'.

Yeah, that's because he's a NT and I have severe and profound Autism...duh.

I'm not going to get into who is right/wrong between you and your brother. You both mutually have issues that you seem to be well aware of, so delving into that on my part isn't going to be very helpful for you.

I probably should have deleted my earlier post in light of how you elaborated on your situation, so while I do believe what I wrote, it not going to be that relevant for you.

But I will say this: Try not to think so much of it as people switching off if they don't get paid. Think of money as your way of showing your appreciation for the work they do. I would LOVE to write and perform music for free and not deal with the "business" side of what I do. However, if I don't get paying gigs, I can't buy fuel for the vehicle, keep my kids fed, pay for a babysitter when I have to be absent, AND keep up appearances. If you enjoy what I do, I need you to show me you enjoy it by helping me care for my family and make arrangements for my children. Sure, I'd enjoy being rich, but that's not what this is about. The money just helps me continue doing what I love to do and sharing that activity with you as a service.

I think the best attitude towards money is that it facilitates people helping each other in ways that are mutually beneficial. If you enjoy certain software or an OS, you show the authors of that 'ware you enjoy it when you purchase it. In turn, those people use their income to support themselves and their families while they continue making 'ware and even providing regular updates and improvements to what's already out there.

If you hire a pro to do work for you, look at it as a team effort rather than us (consumer) versus them (money-grubbing producer). My songwriting partner has had a difficult time looking at my work from that perspective because he's too emotionally involved and it's made him inflexible. I look at it from a finer aesthetic perspective, matching rhythmic figures with natural speech patterns. I COULD be more flexible myself and take a ghost-writing role, but that would also mean I'd have to surrender any/all copyright claims I might have to the music. If I'm never to receive any kind of reward for my work in the long term, I'm going to demand a sizable fee so I can have the security of getting my kids through another year at school. It's not about hitting the big time or being rich. It's about looking after those I'm responsible for and being treated fairly. If you can't help feed my family and rather choose to disrespect me, I can't go anywhere with that. I might "help" you out once at little or no charge, but I'm less inclined to be so generous the next time. It's nothing personal. I've just got a lot riding on me.

I learned long ago to not ask anyone for help or favors. Most people take advantage of you or never come through. If you do one little thing wrong, people freak. But if they do something wrong, you better keep quiet because they are doing you a "favor." I do my best to be self-supportive. It may take me longer and I may hurt myself getting the job done, but I only have to rely on myself. Wish I didn't have to be this way but I don't really know how to connect with people anyways.

This really hit home.

My brother also works in the music industry, (a teacher, writer and producer), and after what happened yesterday, he got a few beers and bowls into him and I was able to thus relate to him as his sister and not just an 'annoying Autistic inconvenience'.

Your words echo his exact words to me...

It's like, "how would YOU feel if you had to pay rent on a premises, take time out of your day, pack all your equipment, drive 40 minutes to work and your students just don't show up without even so much as a phone call saying 'hey, mate...I got the 'flu and I cannot come today"...but no...nothing! Maybe they forgot to charge their mobile phones too...but oh wai, it's pointless asking you how you feel, isn't it?..."

"You must understand that I also have a lot of time and money invested in ME...yes, I too am 'selfish' but that's for the betterment of myself and not at the total expense of other people. You must also realise that my immediate family comes first and I must do whatever I can to put clothes on their back and food in their tummies...it's a full-time job."

"I'd like to be able to help you more, but quite honestly, I just don't have the time...between this tax thing, trying to establish my business, seeking people who owe me money to 'pay up', practicing and keeping 'on top of my game' professionally...where you are sleeping is my own 'private space' where I practice my guitar and I've had to forgo that just so you can sleep there...but I really need to start practicing again, you know?"

He said "it's not about the 'big-time' or 'getting rich'...it's all about opportunity.

So, he said exactly the same thing you did, in almost the exact same words...

I still know that I cannot remain here though as I am only 'getting in their way' and they have also made that obvious.

They just don't have the time nor resources to be able to deal with an Autistic person and I know that too.

As I was typing this, my brother walks in with a 'so, when did you say you were leaving again?'

If I had anywhere to go, I would have been out of here yesterday.

Interesting! I still think he could be a bit nicer to you, though.

And it isn't that you "owe" anyone anything. I think all we "owe" anyone is to just be decent human beings. Even if you're autistic, and as difficult as it can be, those are things that are learnable. If you don't mind one of my characteristic rambles, here are my thoughts on the whole thing--and maybe SOMETHING in here will be helpful for you.

My attitude about money has become that it isn't about me, but about everyone else. When I play a gig, it's because someone's wedding, funeral, party, fundraiser, restaurant, or bar wouldn't be as nice as an event as it would without me. Their needs, not mine, have to come first. My needs/priorities are second place, and when I work with people they understand in order for me to take care of them, they have to take care of me--it's physically impossible for me to show up if I can't buy fuel for the return trip. It's their job to take care of me, and my job to take care of them. Because what we HOPE for is that people we work with have the same attitude: That the needs of others are more important than our own.

What you want to do is find those areas in your life in which you and your brother can win together. You need a place to live. Your brother needs SOMETHING. If they want you gone, it might be in their best interests to help you move out. So the next questions aren't "nice" questions, but they need to be asked: What good are you? What can you do? What do you do all day long? If the issue is not really that he/they mind you living there, then it becomes an issue of conflict resolution.

Your issue as an autistic isn't really that you flat don't care. You obviously DO care, or you wouldn't make ANY kind of effort. You simply suck at showing it! Empathy is just a buzzword that REALLY means you display some kind of understanding that someone is having an issue. You don't have to actually FEEL anything, because if we're being honest NTs don't even do that. Nobody can, because the only person who understands exactly what someone is going through is the person going through it. Rich people don't get poverty because they're rich. Poor people don't get the pressure to make a profit in order to keep thousands of employees paid because they don't have that kind of money and responsibility to throw around. What you, rich people, and poor people DO have to do is acknowledge that other people have issues and, to a lesser degree, validate them. And by validate, I mean just a little bit--at a certain point whiny-babies need to shut up and get on with their lives, and constant validation is not encouraging good behavior. The best way for you to SHOW empathy is ask a lot of questions, get people talking, and then just sit back and listen. ONLY THEN do you get a turn.

Your next convo with your brother should be something like this:

You: I understand you have some issues with me living here.
Him: Yes. (lists issues)
You: I understand, and I really do NOT want to be a burden. I can see how (name issues) can be a problem because (explain how issues cause problems)
Him: Exactly

You just cleared the empathy hurdle. Now it's your turn:

You: The thing is, I have nowhere to go because (explain why you can't leave). Do you see how this makes things difficult?
Him: Yes, but?(whatever he says here is irrelevant)
You: I'm ready to deal with (issues) by (how you intend to fix issues) if I can still live here. I'll clean house, feed the cats/dogs/goldfish, etc. so you can focus on practicing/writing/teaching/whatever and that's one less thing you have to worry about. Can we give it 90 days and revisit this problem then?

Now he's had to listen to you and show that he understands your situation. 3 months when someone is honestly showing they want to change for the better and put others' needs above their own isn't unreasonable. But more importantly for your interests, it buys you some time. While you have 3 months to work with him, go ahead and start building up a list of options. You have nowhere to go RIGHT NOW, but RIGHT NOW is not a snapshot of the rest of your life. There's always SOMETHING you can do. So at the end of 3 months, while you are honestly making an effort and showing improvement, be prepared for bad news.

You: Do you feel like things are better and we can keep going the way we are?
Him: Yes?things are MUCH better. I can live with this arrangement.

AWESOME!

But?

Him: No?things have been better, but I can't live my life the way I want and get as much done if I have to share my living space.
You: OK?I understand. But do you understand that I'm unable to get out of here on my own? I'm going to need some help. Will you help me look for a place and help me move my stuff? I could be out of here in 6 months TOPS. Will that work?

It's a rhetorical question?it HAS to work. You're both in a bind, and you can't help him (by getting out) if he refuses to help you get out (because you can't on your own). You're basically a living boat anchor otherwise. But don't forget, you already had 3 months to do the research and get some ideas, make phone calls, etc. It won't be THAT difficult for you. It still won't be easy, but it's not as hard as it could be. And all you really NEED your brother for is to just help finish the job of getting you out on your own. He wins, you win? That's what you want.

If I were you, the first thing I'd work on is simple conflict resolution and learning some tricks to displaying empathy. One book I enjoyed reading that touches on the topic of empathy is Covey's "7 Habits of Highly Effective People." It's written more to address business and working relationships, but it's also adaptable to interpersonal relationships, something I think people like us tend to have difficulties with.

Thanks again.

I think the first thing, is to fully admit to myself and to others that I am totally incapable of feeling, sharing or displaying any emotion whatsoever.

I was born like this and my whole life has been a struggle of others going; "I have done this for you, so why can't you be happy? why do you never, ever smile? why can't you just be appreciative, you inconsiderate b*tch?"

Then, on the other hand, they go; "I am angry with you...why can't you get angry or mad? why do I never see you cry or even frown? what the hell is wrong with you...you just sit there like a cold fish all the time!"

You see, if I was able to 'emote', I would, and the only way I can show just the slightest bit of frustration (the only emotion I have ever been able to feel) is through writing and not speech.

All my life, it's been about 'pretending to have emotions' just to fit in the society and appear 'normal'...but no matter how much I pretend, these emotions are not 'genuine'...I mean, of course they are not. How can they be?

So, I think it's about time I 'fess up' and just explain to people that I was born without the ability to feel or experience any emotion whatsoever, so please consider that if you are going to be doing any 'favours' for me in future...any favour must be done unconditionally on your part, because I am NOT going to thank you for it".

They say, when you are drowning, it only hurts if you struggle against it and fight it. If you surrender to the water, drowning can be a very pleasant experience...

Anyway, I'm back out 'on the road' again...sleeping in my car...my net access limited to whatever internet cafe I can find..

*talking to my brother made no difference...they said they have "had enough" and shouldn't be expected to handle me on their own without help.

So, cyas on the flip side.

Just before I hit the road, I must ask one question (even though it will be a week before I am able to read or respond to it).

So, where does somebody go to 'learn' emotions? and how does one learn them well enough to make it appear authentic?

I guess it's exactly the same as learning how to speak a foreign language...unless you were born in that country, your accent is going to give you away every time, unless you can also learn to master that too.

So, all replies are welcome.

It doesn't sound like it is emotions giving you the problem, but the outward physical expressions of them. You know there are times when you are expected to smile or to say thank you, and you can learn to do them by rote if you so choose. Acting classes can help.

Don't worry, you didn't do anything wrong. Even though it wasn't his fault for being late, you had no way of knowing. Surely he could have spared a minute or 2 so he could arrange for someone else to pick you up, because leaving you there for an hour and a half and then getting up you for doing literally nothing wrong, is just f*****g stupid. Anyone would be upset in your situation. You have every right to be.
You asked for a favour in a way that was polite and, if said how it was typed, well spoken.
He's just a selfish a**hole.