Your gripes about peer-led autistic adult support groups?

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I'm a bit puzzled here. When people complain about a group having a "hive mind," they usually mean either (a) that the group is almost unanimously dominated by an opinion with which the complainer disagrees (people don't usually voice this complaint about a group they agree with) and/or (b) that the group behaves nastily toward people with a different opinion. But you also wrote:


So there doesn't seem to have been the ideology-based nastiness that people are usually referring to when they complain about a "hive mind"?

Anyhow:


I'm confused here. Everyone was one what? Do you simply mean that everyone was autistic, or something else too?


Well, of course. Autism is the common denominator of any group for autistic people. It's the common denominator here on Wrong Planet too. Perhaps you mean that the focus on autism was somehow more intense in this group than it is here on WP?


Sounds very unpleasant -- and sounds very odd, unless they were arguing about how best to accommodate severely disabled autistic people.


Sounds very unpleasant. Passive-aggressive behavior is something that definitely should be avoided if at all possible. That's why, in my group, our topic-focused discussions often focus on topics like assertiveness, active listening, and conflict-resolution skills.


I wouldn't draw any conclusions about someone's character or competence based solely on what kind of car they drive. They could, for example, just be a rich kid who was given the car by their parents. Hopefully they at least managed to get a legitimate driver's license without bribing the person testing them.

You did mention that the specific person was studying for a master's degree, which does imply above-average academic ability.

Be that as it may, it's certainly not nice to "demean or mock" other members of a group one is attending, regardless of their economic class status.


Turns out I don't need to. There's already a recent thread here about the terminology of "autistic person" vs. "person with autism" and the sets of beliefs and attitudes associated with these two terms.

There is a peer led support in my area where the leadership is very immature, insecure, and controlling. They find the silliest reasons to kick members out of their group. They also start dramas

Unfortunately, that's one of the anti-patterns many groups naturally tend to fall into, unless the leaders specifically make an effort not to be like this.

(The opposite anti-pattern is a leadership that is too hands-off and makes no effort at all to structure the group's activities, welcome newcomers, etc. Groups with a hands-off leadership tend naturally to become very cliquish, though perhaps with less drama than groups with an overly controlling leadership.)

Hence the need for leadership self-training groups, and groups that teach conflict-resolution skills, as well as various other kinds of groups.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 09 Aug 2021, 11:30 am, edited 7 times in total.

Is what you described like "The Blind Leading The Blind", or is it more like "The Inmates Taking Over The Asylum"?

What is needed are degreed professionals to volunteer to facilitate many differently-dedicated support groups, with each one focused on a specific set of needs and capabilities -- degrees of function, comorbidities, sex/gender identities, et cetera.

Leaving group leadership to only the loudest and strongest-willed amateurs (a.k.a., "Bullies") within those groups can and will drive away those who cannot cope and those whose needs are simply not being met.

Groups led by degreed professionals are good to have. It would be especially desirable to have such groups for autistic people with various specific co-occurring mental conditions such as depression or anxiety.

However:

(1) There is a shortage of degreed professionals to lead such groups. Even here in NYC, groups for autistic people with specific co-occurring conditions either don't exist or are hard to find, nor are there very many general support groups for autistic people, led by degreed professionals.

(2) Even if there were no shortage of degreed professionals, I believe that we shouldn't lean exclusively on professionals, but should also work on developing our own conflict-resolution skills, both on our own and with each other, and some of us should also develop leadership skills.

(3) For those of us willing to work on these skills, there is a level of camaraderie that's possible only in a peer-led group, not a professional-led group.

In short, I believe that both professional-led groups and peer-led groups are desirable to have. They serve somewhat different purposes.


This is why, even for peer-led groups, we need leadership training.

Suuurrrrre ... let us send those narcissistic bullies to leadership training so that they can not only say, "Because I said so", but also "And my Leadership Training certificate says so" right before they say, "Deal with it or get out, loser!"

Last edited by Fnord on 09 Aug 2021, 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The main three leaders on their are definitely narcissistic bullies along next to their flying monkeys who do their dirty work for them. (Psychological term). They are controlling and destructive as well.


The president of the board hurt a good friend of mine, who used to attend that group because he found that my friend is very outspoken and has the tendency to be a leader too. He started hiding behind other members of the group by telling him that other members are intimidated by him and that he kept giving him death glares. He also has his flying monkeys control my friend, micromanage him, and pick on him every time they got together. He also destroyed several of his friendships with several members of the group while sabotaging every opportunity for him to meet new people in the group.

Other things
1. Someone brought a vaping machine to one of the restaurants and one of the board members started nagging at him for having it there.
2. While I was in the sensory room, another visitor put a note in the door and got kicked out for that

In a sufficiently well-developed autistic community, there would be enough groups so that people would have a choice about which groups to attend. Thus, hopefully people would be able to find alternatives to groups led by true "narcissistic bullies," and hopefully most such groups would eventually wither away and die.

Hopefully there will eventually be enough professional-led groups, too, for the above to be true for professional-led groups as well as peer-led groups. Degreed professionals can be "narcissistic bullies" too.

I should also point out that, besides true "narcissistic bullies," there are also plenty of people who aren't true "narcissistic bullies," but who may behave in "bullying" ways due to lack of conflict resolution skills. Such people can be helped to become (truly) better leaders via conflict-resolution training and leadership training.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 09 Aug 2021, 12:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Yip. Immature, insecure and controlling. It's often the immature causing the most drama yet they seem to think they're capable of "controlling" the group. An immature aspie is not in the slightest equipped to control a group or be a dominant member if they have precious little practical life experience and lived a sheltered life.

For the sake of everyone's sanity in such groups, there needs to be a fairly thought out and objective pecking order due to how widely varied the capabilities of different aspies can be. You can't just shove anyone at the top of the pecking order. It's obvious an aspie who can drive a minibus, is successful with work or whatnot, doesn't need his/her parents when outside the house for support and doesn't go into perpetual meltdowns is far better suited and mature for being one of the group leaders than an aspie who needs constant support and will crumble when under the slightest bit of pressure. I know who my bet would be on for an enjoyable day trip in the next city over with the actual prospect of getting home.......its not the latter.


It's no wonder the support group you went to was a pile of poop.

Hive mind as in the integrity of the group is everything. Nothing outside the norm will be tolerated.



Pretty much same as above really. The hive mind vibe I got wasn't really anything in particular but if I could describe it it was autism procrastination appeasement and clicky.

Anyhow:



Everyone was autistic and clicky.



Yeah it was more intense and seemed unhealthy. Almost as if they wanted to create a perfect bubble world and shield themselves from "them" as in NT society. Understandable but not healthy and if an aspie with NT confidence, capabilities and traits entered they would be very weary of them.



There was an over emphasis on accommodating more disabled autistic people hence why they didn't really take easily to very mild aspies.



I think it's common in non aspie groups regardless of what the group might be. The issue is that being autistic and often lacking in life skills, their attempts to dominate were just weird and out of touch.



Some of them were very able. Many aspies are indistinguishable from NT's other than being a bit unusual. A lot of what they achieved was done on their own backs. Anyone including aspies with a list of achievements as long as their arm just find attempted "flexing" weird from others who might not have done anywhere near as much in life

You did mention that the specific person was studying for a master's degree, which does imply above-average academic ability.

Be that as it may, it's certainly not nice to "demean or mock" other members of a group one is attending, regardless of their economic class status.


Turns out I don't need to. There's already a recent thread here about the terminology of "autistic person" vs. "person with autism" and the sets of beliefs and attitudes associated with these two terms.[/quote]

And in a sufficiently well-developed utopia, there would be no bullies at all.

Your understanding of the situation seems more literary than experiential.

My other problem with some of the support groups today is that they are becoming too political. While self-advocacy is important, I don't really care about that stuff. I just want a support group where I can be around other people who I can relate to. I am also more interested in learning about the social skills, learning how to keep a job, etc.

The people in these "Self-advocacy groups" can also be very mean and demanding. They also seem to take everything that could help them and throw a big tantrum. On top of that, it's a sin if you want to be involved in the activities with Autism Speaks as way of raising acceptance. If you are part of that group, then you are the enemy of these self-advocacy groups. I don't like that. It also seems everyone is always out to get them.

Hmm, I'm curious about possible motivations to become a leader. What drives people to lead support groups like that? If one understands motivation, it might make easier to pick compatible group?

... which made things difficult for people who had not yet been initiated into the group norms?


By "clicky" you mean cliquish?


I see nothing wrong with trying to create an alternative social setting that is more autistic-friendly than the norm. But creating it requires conscious effort; it can't be done by being "passive-aggressive," as you characterized these people as being. Also it would be helpful to have orientation sessions and literature.

For a history of some of the first efforts to create autistic spaces, see Autism Network International - The Development of a Community and Its Culture by Jim Sinclair.


I wouldn't call this an "over-emphasis" -- at least in any absolute sense. IMO it's fine and desirable to have groups that aim to accommodate more-disabled autistic people -- although such groups might not be the best ones for "very mild Aspies." It's desirable to have a variety of different groups for different people.


It seems to me that a "non-Aspie" group needs (even more so than an "Aspie" group) to have a clear structure and a clear set of rules and guidelines.


I don't disagree with you on that. I disagree only with making judgments about a person's ability and achievements based on what kind of car (if any) the person drives.

Irrelevant straw man. I don't claim such a utopia is likely, although hopefully the number of bullies can be greatly reduced.


No, my understanding of the situation is based on many years of experiential (as well as historical/literary) knowledge of various non-mainstream subcultures I've been involved in over the years, including the extremely well-developed (at least in major cities like NYC) LGBTQ+ community.

One thing I noticed about a few of the smaller subcultures I've been involved with over the years is that they went through a phase of being dominated by total as*holes -- but then outgrew that phase as the subculture grew large enough for people to have more choices. (And I don't think today's autistic community is anywhere near as bad, in this regard, as a couple of the other subcultures I've gotten involved with.)