Frenemies

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How do people cope with the duality (if that's what it is) of friends who are also enemies of some type, you know what I mean? They're your friends but they envy you or they're rivals or whatever - you can't ever let your guard down around them, that sort of thing I call "Frenemies". I suppose you get it in romantic relationships too. Do you just put up with it because that's all there is in human relationships or what? Non-autistic people seem to find this sort of thing 'normal', but to me it's not what I want in relationships.

I do not feel anyone should have to compromise who they are to have true friends, but for many aspies we often play the part, lose some of our self to have what we feel we should... often that of course turns out to be fake, as its unrealistic to be real friends with those that do not or are not willing to truly see or understand our real differences.

A lot of aspie also have almost like a second sense, and can see through fake, which makes its difficult to have real friends, unless on a deeper level. I wish I knew the answers, gut feelings have always worked for me, but I still find myself at present in a near impossible situation, does our logic have to out weigh our happiness... I guess what we perceive as wanting to be normal is not.

I have a frenemy that is out of necessity at work. To me she is as fake as a cardboard cut out, but to others she is ms. wonderful - she is too good at playing the social game. She is mean to patients and lab personnel, she disrespects the doctor she works for, she spends a lot of her time just socializing and telling us how much better she is than the rest of us and how she knows everything, and yet she manages to spin things as so to put herself in the good light. If you throw manure on her, people would say she smells like roses. I learned very painfully it is better to have her in front of you, smiling, rather than behind you, knife in hand, ready to plunge. To make it worse, I found she has allies in the office, not afraid to "tattle" if *I* do something wrong, because they expect a higher standard of behavior from me. The old adage works here - keep your friends close, your enemies closer.

HOWEVER, if a frenemy type can't make life miserable for you ( i.e. you don't work with them, they are not your boss or think they are your boss, or has any influence in people who can do harm etc.) , put distance in between you and them. Unless the benefits outweigh the dangers, its always better not to put up with despots.

Thanks for the responses, some interesting thoughts there (also got a PM reply).

Yes, my particular frenemy is very controlling and exploitative. She is has good superficial social skills, like being smiley and 'friendly'. The thing I've realised about her as time has passed is that she has no abiltiy to know people on any other scale than superficial. It doesn't go any deeper. She only bothers to get to know people's weak points or vulnerabilities and as far as she is concerned that IS knowing people. I set boundaries which she delights in crossing. It's all a power game, even the most inconsequential chat is treated as a power game, which is tedious. I would guess she has some degree of sociopathy.

That's all there is?

I'm in the process of ending the relationship (for the second time) because basically she is unable to learn or change. It's something you see a lot of in NTs, they are fixed, rigid personality types who can't change. I know that's something that is said of AS people, but in this sort of situation I think we're quite fluid, unfixed personalities who can adapt and change to fit in with other personalities.

It's not a work related thing - you can't choose your work colleagues, unfortunately. I know that world of having to be seen to have 'friends' at work, people to lunch with who are all your rivals and competitors.

most of my friendships have been/are quite ambivalent, and i've found that weighing up the good and bad aspects of your friendship will establish whether it's worth maintaining or not. as long as i feel that the other person wants the best for me and won't spread the personal info i disclose, i won't discount them even if they do have some bewildering or exasperating tendencies.

I myself am one of those who can read someone pretty well in about 5 minutes. My standards are too high for most I guess. I can't handle fake people. I'd rather be alone. I can't stand dishonesty, disrespect, or behavior that makes me feel suspicious and untrusting. I don't care what you look like, I don't care if you have fins growing out of your neck I only care that a friend is real and straight forward. I can tolerate just about anything as long as it's got a basis in reality.

I always thought this was just snobbish behavior on my part, but I'm getting closer and closer to suspecting strongly that I like my daughter have Asperger's. And if it was just being a snob, why don't i care about things like economic status, race, religion, etc. None of that matters, and I believe strongly in "to each his own", I just can't buy into false people. There are so many of em prancing around too!!

Edit: Now that I think about all this, I was always socially awkward as a kid, and was bullied quite a lot, but the people who had potential to be friends, I thought they had to know everything about me. I was often one to tell alot of things about myself, and obviously this wasn't a good idea, and I should have waitied longer to see if I could trust them. When you're a kid desperate for friends and alone though, funny things can happen, and some not so funny as well. I'm glad I'm taking the time to teach my daughter to navigate, and I wish someone had taught me.

That person does sound like a sociopath.
No, I don't think it's "normal," even among NTs, but common enough to be a problem.
I would stay as far away as possible. I've been fired at least twice because of people like that.

And Bunni, I think that's about where I am, sort-of.
Although the way you phrase it isn't exactly me.
Maybe we should start something for the over 40 gang (I'm 52).
It's hard to get answers when I can't even phrase the question.

People like that are not friends, period. They're just acting social and phony. Smile and wave back at them, and remain aloof.

Dino cafe is for over 40 and the ex-dino cafe too

Yeah thats happen to me before, me and one of my close friends went through some rough spots, it was mainly due to the amount of clingyness I put upon him. I eventually learned, just let him do whatever and still be his friend. Anyways he got so fed up with me back in Jan that we didnt speak for a month or he forced me not to. And now ironically, he'll some times say, "Lindsey you didnt call me in like 3 days."(there is a possiblity he might be kidding, he jokes alot) Im like thinking wel you practically asked for this. You didnt want me to cling so Im not. Now, our friendships pretty smooth.

When I got sent to the psych ward and got suspended from my school, there were my parents and relatives who were trying to be supportive but were doing quite the opposite. And my roommate another person.

So I've had plenty of frienemies this past year that distressed quite a bit and about 3 turned into enemies which I just dont speak to anymore. Ive quite a bit this past year and I now I know just how many people I can trust, almost no one.

'A lot of aspie also have almost like a second sense, and can see through fake, which makes its difficult to have real friends, unless on a deeper level.'

I actually call it the sixth sense, but it's the same idea.

Just a question: If Aspies are characterised by generally not being able to read facial expressions and changes in emotion within someone else, then shouldn't they not be able to pick up the little things like you mentioned?

They are different things While one may not pick up on a facial expression of emotion, or derive attitude, there are things people say and do that perhaps we do pick up on. It's hard to explain. I know there are several times I've met someone, and my husband thought they were perfectly nice, while I would be picking them apart, "did you notice they did this or that? did you see how he did this?" That kinda thing.

The way someone answers a question too, or perhaps the kinds of things I will talk about to elicit a response, tells me more of what I want to know as well.

Also not all Aspies are face blind, and sometimes it's only the subtle nuances that are missed. Those that are obvious or exaggerated are sometimes clear enough. All different

My personal experience is that when the chips are down, frenemies will become enemies. I'd much rather have one true friend than any number of fairweather ones. And YES, YES, YES to our ability to "see through the fake". It drives me crazy sometimes, because the world is filled with way too much BS, and I don't have any desire to notice all of it.

I agree, we can call it second sense, sixth sense, gut feeling.. but really i guess maybe its just the way we perceive the world and view things differently. I do not know what it is, but drives my husband crazy, sometimes just sense things and always right! I compare at times to a kind of sense young children and animals have an instinct that a lot of adults lose, maybe we are more naive! but a lot of us do seem to have a natural connection with animals and children. I always say that they are in fact the best judge, if a child does not like someone for no reason, they often just have sense and there usually is a reason.

When I was working in London when ever new temps were interviewed, everyone wanted me to speak with them and within minutes I just knew if they would be right for the job. The ones that I said would not work out and others took on were always eventually fire, as never worked out. I have no idea why I could do this, but others knew and always requested my help because of this.

It can be heart-breaking too. My daughter is finding out about frenemies and is just learning that some who are nice to your face turn their backs and aren't so nice. It's one of those things she has noticed but doesn't want to notice. I watched two girls literally walk up to her smiling and she started going toward them. As soon as she got close, they literally turned around and walked the other way. It was an obvious snub. One of these girls she really thought of as a good friend. She turned around and came toward me, and I asked her what that was about. As soon as I did a tear started rolling down her cheek. So it seems she is somewhat aware, but tries very hard to distance herself from it. I changed the subject very quickly. That was 4th grade.

Now, she's learning a bit more, and we talk about it in small bits. She's more trusting of the opinions from people she trusts, some adults who look out for her at school, definitely trusts me, so if I am warned about one of these friends, I can talk to her about it in such a way that it gives her a heads up and she moves on a little. It is very very hard though.

It's possible to understand something and be unable to do it. One can coach from a wheel chair. We are capable of understanding it better than they are. We are free to ask rational questions and wonder about the system. They don't think about it, they just go on instinct.