Gaza Pullout
21 Aug 2005, 3:53 pm
I guess it dpoesn't really matter. Drung the battle of Armageddon, Israel won't have a buffer zone so they will have to use nuclear force. After that, there will be so few Arabs left that Israel will control the east bank of the Nile as far east as the west bank of the Euphrates. That was close to the boundary of King Solmon's empire, but not quite. The Jews taking control over most of the Middle East is the last thing that needs to occur for God's promise to Abraham to be fulfilled.
Note: See Genisis 15. Notice that God says that the one born in Abraham's house (Ishmael) "will not be your heir". Genisis 15:18 says:
"On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates--"".
21 Aug 2005, 5:12 pm
In common with the vast majority of Israelis I have absolutely no sympathy with the 'settlers'. If you knew that when you moved onto the land you were in flagrant breach of UN rulings and the weight of international opinion and in so doing were contributing to the oppression and brutalisation of the people whose land you were taking by force then you can have no complaint when you are finally removed. As it happens, for all the human drama of the Gaza evictions the real issue is to do with east Jerusalem and there Sharon is continuing as ever with the programme of land grabbing and victimisation of the Palestinians, day by day. Israel is taking more and more land and building higher and higher walls and has no intention of stopping. The Gaza thing is purely an attempt by Sharon to deflect attention from this and to be able to claim that he is working towards peace whereas in fact he has no such intentions. The sight of the 'settlers' being so upset by their houses being bulldozed is sickening - Palestinian houses have been being bulldozed for years, and without the compensation and resettlement packages that the 'settlers' are getting either. Palestinian families are left with nothing and nowhere to go but into refugee camps. In Israel the 'settlers' are seen as fundamentalists and extremists and represent the tiny minority of opinion.
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Long afloat on shipless oceans,
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21 Aug 2005, 7:23 pm
1) Israel had existed for thousands of years ago (most remembered for that certain Jew named Jesus who was born around 1 a.d. during the roman occupation)
2) during the roman occupation, the romans named the area that the jews lived in as the province of 'palestine' (its actually a little different, but that is where the name is from)
fast forward to today:
1) Jews promised homeland from british in the 'palestine' mandate area.
2) Jews settle land once again
3) 1948, following the Arab rejection of the two-state parition plan drafted by the UN where israel and a new country named palestine would coexist together, arab forces invade the area settled and proposed as a state for the jews.
4) The arabs lose the 1948 war (even though they have more weapons, help from the british, and far more people and logistics...) Israel forms after winning the 1948 war with more land than proposed under the UN partition plan of 1947.
5) 1967 War. Syria signs agreements with Egpyt and Jordan to invade Israel. Egyptian, Jordianian, and Syria armies mass on the border of Israel in preparation to invade. Soviet Ambassador sanctions the build up and war against Israel. Israel mobilizes to defend itself against the impending invasion. Israel launches air strikes and ground attacks against Egpytian and Jordanian forces as well as attacks against Syria. Syria, the instigator and architect of the war, refuses to invade (they wanted the Egpytians to do the dirty work and then rush in when Israel was weak) and leaves Egypt and Jordan to fight alone. Egypt and Jordan lose (Jordanian forces win some battles in the west bank area). Egypt and Jordan, having lose militarily and having lose massive amounts of land sign cease fires with Israel. Israel then attacks the Syrian architect of the war who double crossed Egypt and Jordan. Hostilities end.
6) Israel ends the 67 war having captured land from Egypt (Gaza Strip), Jordan, (West Bank), and part of the Golan Heights (Syria). This is where the territories are captured from. There was no "Palestine" before the war, nor was there after the war. Those living in the West bank and Gaza are Egpytian and Jordanian citizens now living under occupation because their nations lost the war they launched (yes, massing armies on another country's borders is an act of war per even the UN)
7) Egypt launches sneak attack in 1973 that catches Israel off guard. (even though Jordan told them of it, they simply brushed it off as nonsense) Israel loses land and repels the attack with significant loss of life. Egpyt (under Sadat, who is latter assasinated for this reason) seeks peace with Israel a few years later. He would claim to invade in 73 because the US and Israel were not taking his efforts at a peace treaty seriously. Egypt begins recieving 2bln dollars a year in the late 70s from the US for peace with Israel. Israel recieves 3bln each year.
Since then, the PLO (under Arafat) rejects every two state solution proposed by the Americans, Europeans, and Israelis. PLO eventually sign Oslo acords agreeing to administer the region and renounce terror, they do neither (at least with no effect)
Two intifada wars break out against israel with terror attacks on civilian targets.
Israel begins construction of security barrier composed of (95%) fence, and (5%) wall. This security barrier is unfairly called a wall when it is only 5 percent wall and 95 percent fence. It should be called a fence or barrier, but not a wall.
I hope everyone learned something.
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Woof, Bark ( jmat )
22 Aug 2005, 12:18 am
Why do Jews move there, is it free land or other inducements. I can't understand why people would want to live in a war zone.
They move to Israel for religious reasons. I got this information from Wikipedia. Jewish people think of it as moving back or returning to the Promised Land. They believe they are descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They think that is enough of a reason to live there and fight for that land.
22 Aug 2005, 12:47 am
You forgot to mention that after the invasion, the US obtained photos of the USSR loading paratroopers for deployment. President Nixon was was informed of this and promptly called Kruschev threatening to 'launch' if the paratroopers were deployed.
26 Sep 2005, 9:59 pm
2) during the roman occupation, the romans named the area that the jews lived in as the province of 'palestine' (its actually a little different, but that is where the name is from)
fast forward to today:
1) Jews promised homeland from british in the 'palestine' mandate area.
2) Jews settle land once again
3) 1948, following the Arab rejection of the two-state parition plan drafted by the UN where israel and a new country named palestine would coexist together, arab forces invade the area settled and proposed as a state for the jews.
4) The arabs lose the 1948 war (even though they have more weapons, help from the british, and far more people and logistics...) Israel forms after winning the 1948 war with more land than proposed under the UN partition plan of 1947.
5) 1967 War. Syria signs agreements with Egpyt and Jordan to invade Israel. Egyptian, Jordianian, and Syria armies mass on the border of Israel in preparation to invade. Soviet Ambassador sanctions the build up and war against Israel. Israel mobilizes to defend itself against the impending invasion. Israel launches air strikes and ground attacks against Egpytian and Jordanian forces as well as attacks against Syria. Syria, the instigator and architect of the war, refuses to invade (they wanted the Egpytians to do the dirty work and then rush in when Israel was weak) and leaves Egypt and Jordan to fight alone. Egypt and Jordan lose (Jordanian forces win some battles in the west bank area). Egypt and Jordan, having lose militarily and having lose massive amounts of land sign cease fires with Israel. Israel then attacks the Syrian architect of the war who double crossed Egypt and Jordan. Hostilities end.
6) Israel ends the 67 war having captured land from Egypt (Gaza Strip), Jordan, (West Bank), and part of the Golan Heights (Syria). This is where the territories are captured from. There was no "Palestine" before the war, nor was there after the war. Those living in the West bank and Gaza are Egpytian and Jordanian citizens now living under occupation because their nations lost the war they launched (yes, massing armies on another country's borders is an act of war per even the UN)
7) Egypt launches sneak attack in 1973 that catches Israel off guard. (even though Jordan told them of it, they simply brushed it off as nonsense) Israel loses land and repels the attack with significant loss of life. Egpyt (under Sadat, who is latter assasinated for this reason) seeks peace with Israel a few years later. He would claim to invade in 73 because the US and Israel were not taking his efforts at a peace treaty seriously. Egypt begins recieving 2bln dollars a year in the late 70s from the US for peace with Israel. Israel recieves 3bln each year.
Since then, the PLO (under Arafat) rejects every two state solution proposed by the Americans, Europeans, and Israelis. PLO eventually sign Oslo acords agreeing to administer the region and renounce terror, they do neither (at least with no effect)
Two intifada wars break out against israel with terror attacks on civilian targets.
Israel begins construction of security barrier composed of (95%) fence, and (5%) wall. This security barrier is unfairly called a wall when it is only 5 percent wall and 95 percent fence. It should be called a fence or barrier, but not a wall.
I hope everyone learned something.
29 Sep 2005, 2:33 am
jmatucd, FYI modern settlement by Jews in the areas currently in Israel goes back to 1878, before the British promise to 'view with favour the establishment of a Jewish national home' or words to that effect from the Balfour Declaration of 1917. Even before that for the most part of the 19th century Jerusalem had a Jewish majority.
Postperson, statelessnesss might be good for individual Jews but not for the Jewish tribe as a whole. The only place where Jewish population is growing is Israel.
As for the Territories situation - Israel should have followed Machiavelli's third advice to his prince - withdraw immediately and negotiate peace.
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29 Sep 2005, 7:27 pm
George Carlin: "That's what we did wrong in vietnam, we pulled out. Not a very manly thing to do. We you're f*****g someone you need to f**k em good. f**k em all the way. f**k them to death! f**k them to death! Keeping f*****g them until they're all dead! We left a few women and children alive in vietnam, and we've never felt good about ourselves since."
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And as always, these are simply my worthless opinions.
My body is a channel that translates energy from the universe into happiness.
I either express information, or consume it. I am debating which to do right now.
09 Oct 2005, 10:01 am
Most Israelis also want a two-state solution. The Palestinian leaders have been offered their own state enough times, but they keep saying no because they’d rather continue waging their war of extermination against Israel. The Palestinians shouldn’t be given their own state as a reward for terrorism, but since the terrorists don’t actually want to live in an independent state alongside Israel, and since you should never give terrorists what they want, maybe one way of demonstrating that the Palestinian Authority is not ready for statehood is by forcing some form of independence upon them.
There’s been a significant Jewish presence in Palestine for centuries, and the Jews were already a majority in what was to become Israel.
In 1947 the U.N. divided Palestine into an area in which the Jews were a majority and an area in which the Arabs were a majority. The partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states had already been proposed by the British in the Peel Report of 1937, a proposal that the Jews accepted and the Arabs rejected (responding with violence against the Jews throughout Palestine).
When the U.N. divided Palestine, the Jews declared the independence of the state of Israel, and the Arab League responded by declaring a war of extermination against Israel.
So the subsequent Palestinian refugee problem came about as a result of a war that the Arabs started.
In fact, many of the Arab refugees were told to leave by their own leaders rather than surrender, and many were scared into leaving by lies spread by the Arabs about Jewish “atrocities” that never happened. (When Hussein Khalidi, a Palestinian leader, was confronted with the fact that, contrary to Arab claims, no rapes had occurred at Deir Yassin, he said, “we have to say this, so that Arab armies will come to liberate us from the Jews.”)
Some Arabs were forced to leave because they were deliberately blocking the road to Jerusalem, depriving the city’s inhabitants of food and other supplies. It was never part of the general Israeli policy to drive the Arabs out, but at least in exceptional circumstances like this the Jews actually allowed the Arabs to leave. Many Arab leaders at the time, however, made it quite clear that their aim was the extermination of the Jews.
So what happened to the Arabs who stayed in Israel? Well, there are now one million Arabs in Israel with full civil and voting rights, but it’s unlikely anyone would ever learn that from watching the BBC. As Jonathan Kay said in the National Post, “It is important to remember that the nation Arabs unanimously demonize has something the whole Arab world does not: democracy. There are 12 democratically elected Arab MPs in Israel's Knesset. Looking beyond the Arab world's various Potemkin parliaments, that's 12 more than in the whole of the Arab Middle East combined.”
Compare Israel to Jordan. In 1922, Abdullah of the Hijaz annexed the area (while the British looked on) and proclaimed a new country with himself as King. Jordan later ethnically cleansed all Jews from the country. Jordanian law still explicitly prohibits Jews from becoming citizens.
Sometimes people forget that there is already an Arab state in Palestine – namely Jordan – and its (illegitimate) creation led to thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing their homes. Most of these Jews then settled in Israel.
The Arabs who fled the Israeli War of Independence (and their descendants), however, are still being kept in refugee camps 50 years later, thanks to the desire of the neighbouring Arab states to use them as pawns for anti-Israel propaganda.
Last edited by Klytus on 15 Oct 2005, 1:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
09 Oct 2005, 10:06 am
The settlements might have been a bad idea, but they’re not illegal, because they’re on land that was captured by Israel in a defensive war. This is why the occupation isn’t illegal either.
The Palestinians were occupied by Jordanian and Egyptian armies between 1948 and 1967, but few people ever complained about that.
After the 1967 war, the U.N. ordered Israel to return the territories it captured (the first time in history that they’d ordered a country to return territories captured in a defensive war) but only as part of an overall peace agreement recognizing Israel’s right to live in security.
The Arab states rejected the offer of peace. They responded with the word: “No peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel, no recognition of Israel.”
Israel did later return the Sinai to Egypt in return for a peace offered by the Egyptian President Sadat (a decision which probably cost Sadat his life). Israel also offered to return the West Bank to Jordan, but Jordan renounced claims to the West Bank in favour of the Palestinian Authority, and the Palestinians refused to agree to peace.
As for public opinion, Israel should be more concerned with protecting its citizens from terrorist attacks than with public opinion, especially since the Palestinians have become so adept at manipulating public opinion. The Palestinians realise they’re onto a winner; they send terrorists to murder innocent Israeli civilians and provoke Israel into a reaction. So when Israel sends its army to destroy the bomb-making factories and kill the terrorist leaders, people in the West see the pictures of Israeli soldiers entering Palestinian neighbourhoods, and join in the vilification of Israel.
The Palestinian terrorists have sought to provoke maximum outrage through their tactic of using civilians as human shields and building their terror bases next to schools and other civilian centres.
Public opinion wasn’t so anti-Israel in recent decades when the source of the conflict was relatively fresh in people’s minds.
16 Oct 2005, 5:51 pm
Actually, Jerusalem is mentioned in the Koran. Only it's called "El Qud", which means "The Holy". It's where Mohammed rose to heaven. The description of the location in which it's is located closely matches Jerusalem's surrounding land. But you're right in the sense that Jerusalem is never mentioned by name.
According to the former Harvard professor, Daniel Pipes, the Koran mentions Mohammed being taken to al-aqsa ("the furthest place of worship"). There is now an Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, but it wasn't built till nearly 100 years after Mohammed died.
Jerusalem Means More to Jews Than to Muslims
by Daniel Pipes
Los Angeles Times
July 21, 2000
With final-status talks between Israel and the Palestinians underway, Jerusalem is finally in play. At base, the argument here consists of an argument between Jews and Moslems over who has the older, better documented, and deeper ties to the Holy City.
A cursory review of the facts shows that there is not much of a contest.
Jerusalem has a unique importance to Jews. It has a unique place in Jewish law and a pervasive presence in the Jewish religion. Jews pray toward Jerusalem, mourn the destruction of their Temple there, and wishfully repeat the phrase "Next year in Jerusalem." It is the only capital of the Jewish state, ancient or modern.
In contrast, Jerusalem has a distinctly secondary place for Moslems. It is not once mentioned in the Koran or in the liturgy. The Prophet Mohammed never went to the city, nor did he have ties to it. Jerusalem never has served as the capital of any polity, and has never been an Islamic cultural center.
Rather, Mecca is the "Jerusalem" of Islam. That is where Moslems believe that Abraham nearly sacrificed Ishmael; where Mohammed lived most of his life; and where the key events of Islam took place. Moslems pray in its direction five times each day and it is where non-Moslems are forbidden to set foot.
Jerusalem being of minor importance to Islam, why do Moslems nowadays insist that the city is more important to them than to Jews? The answer has to do with politics. Moslems take religious interest in Jerusalem when it serves practical interests. When those concerns lapse, so does the standing of Jerusalem. This pattern has recurred at least five times over 14 centuries.
The Prophet. When Mohammed sought to convert the Jews in the 620s C.E., he adopted several Jewish-style practices - a Yom Kippur-like fast, a synagogue-like place of worship, kosher-style food restrictions - and also tachanun-like prayers while facing Jerusalem. But when most Jews rejected Mohammed's overtures, the Koran changed the prayer direction to Mecca and Jerusalem lost importance for Moslems.
The Umayyad Dynasty. Jerusalem regained stature a few decades later when rulers of the Umayyad dynasty sought ways to enhance the importance of their territories. One way was by building two monumental religious structures in Jerusalem, the Dome of the Rock in 691 and Al-Aqsa Mosque in 715.
Then the Umayyads did something tricky: The Koran states that God took Mohammed "by night from the sacred mosque in Mecca to the furthest (al-aqsa) place of worship." When this passage was revealed (about 621), "furthest place of worship" was a turn of phrase, not a specific place. Decades later, the Umayyads built a mosque in Jerusalem and called it Al-Aqsa. Moslems since then understand the passage about the "furthest place of worship" as referring to Jerusalem.
But when the Umayyads fell in 750, Jerusalem lapsed into near obscurity.
The Crusades. The Crusader conquest of Jerusalem in 1099 evinced little Moslem reaction at first. Then, as a Moslem counter-crusade developed, so did a whole literature extolling the virtues of Jerusalem. As a result, at about this time Jerusalem came to be seen as Islam's third most holy city.
Then, safely back in Moslem hands in 1187, the city lapsed into its usual obscurity. The population declined, even the defensive walls fell.
The British conquest. Only when British troops reached Jerusalem in 1917, did Moslems reawaken to the city's importance. Palestinian leaders made Jerusalem a centerpiece of their campaign against Zionism.
When the Jordanians won the old city in 1948, Moslems predictably lost interest again in Jerusalem. It reverted to a provincial backwater, deliberately degraded by the Jordanians in favor of Amman, their capital.
Taking out a bank loan, subscribing to telephone service, or registering a postal package required a trip to Amman. Jordanian radio transmitted the Friday sermon not from Al-Aqsa but from a minor mosque in Amman. Jerusalem also fell off the Arab diplomatic map: the PLO covenant of 1964 did not mention it. No Arab leader (other than King Hussein, and he rarely) visited there.
The Israeli conquest. When Israel captured the city in June 1967, Moslem interest in Jerusalem again surged. The 1968 PLO covenant mentioned Jerusalem by name. Revolutionary Iran created a Jerusalem Day and placed the city on bank notes. Money flooded into the city to build it up.
Thus have politics, more than religious sentiments, driven Moslem interest in Jerusalem through history.
17 Oct 2005, 12:20 am
You forgot to mention that after the invasion, the US obtained photos of the USSR loading paratroopers for deployment. President Nixon was was informed of this and promptly called Kruschev threatening to 'launch' if the paratroopers were deployed.
Also after the Yom Kippur war, Arabs tripled their oil prices.
