techstepgenr8tion
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03 Dec 2008, 5:59 pm
03 Dec 2008, 7:30 pm
techstepgenr8tion
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Age: 46
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03 Dec 2008, 7:56 pm
Your killin' me Smalls. I know your smarter than that...
03 Dec 2008, 8:00 pm
03 Dec 2008, 8:18 pm
techstepgenr8tion
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Age: 46
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03 Dec 2008, 8:34 pm
03 Dec 2008, 8:53 pm
techstepgenr8tion
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Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 46
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03 Dec 2008, 10:38 pm
04 Dec 2008, 8:30 am
Wow, well this is such a hard topic but I feel compelled to respond. I am only responding on the Pak situation – the wider Muslim thing in your post will take too much time to address.
In a word totally “agree” the majority does have to rise to this – this doesn’t happen as majority just wants to get on with peaceful and better life. Though that very concept eludes them because of their inaction.
The challenge is people as a group do not take responsibility.
You may be familiar with Bibb Latané’s concept of “diffusion of responsibility” in group situations. Also his “The Unresponsive Bystander” theory.
http://www.muskingum.edu/~psych/psycweb ... latane.htm
An example of was seen in Kitty Genovese murder. Whether one agrees with this concept or not, there are plenty of examples of this in history “Nazi Germany”, “ Spanish inquisition” etc..
To raise the masses (majority) to a cause, one needs leaders and organisation.
The situation on Pakistani is as following:
1) To deal with one evil (Soviet Union 1979-1989) several groups (Majuhidin) were supported but once the war was over “Taliban” took over the power void – another evil was born.
(Background history)
Afghanistan got invaded in 1979 by USSR (if you are young then this is the cold war time- strategically USSR invading Pak and getting to Warm waters would have been a catastrophe for the capitalist world). So after initial stand of 2 years by Pak (and then army govt – only really organised and reasonably sincere establishment in Pak & aid from China). Flood gates of military and intelligence help poured from USA & Saudi. This was great ,USSR pushed back but in the process the “modern” (as opposed to the old one) concept of “mujahidin” was born - they were sponsored, given monetary aid, CIA training (Osama Bin Laden) and an organisation to work from which was connected worldwide for funding and participation. War ends – Taleban take over all the other rival groups. Feeling abandonment, disgruntled warriors – known nothing but war – brain washed a bit (a lot)– kind of obvious. Very very misguided, flawed in thinking and causing people in general including Muslims great harm.
Due to open border policy between Pak and Afghan to accommodate refugees – there was/is great spill over of both the concept of “mujahidin” and the actual organisation/s.
The article below gives a good summary of the Soviet invasion, though it could have elaborated on psychological and socio impacts more.
http://nhs.needham.k12.ma.us/cur/baker_ ... -01_mj_sz/
2) Pakistan Social divide – 2-5% elite rules 95-98% population (legacy from British colonial days but to be honest was probably same in Mogul empire – I don’t know to be frank). Most Elite are happy with status co as it gives them power. Those who abhor the corrupt system and want to change the situation are quickly attacked by other “ruling class” and mostly leave the country.
(Background)
So the so called elite are the landlords or highly educated as well as influential people fall into following category:
a) Very corrupt and will sell the country for money – practically all of the present ruling Pak govt.
b) Ones who are educated, talented and sincere – leave the country in mass exodus as they get disgruntled by the hopelessness of extremely corrupt system. So the intellectual capital of the country leaves it at the first opportunity – imagine your best doctors, engineers, teachers, thinkers gone. Well they have to be best as they will hardly get jobs in the more developed world easily otherwise. 
c) But not all go some stay – some even are brave and courageous to form a stand – these people get death threats and in some cases get murdered. This is not very funny – but this happens.
(Conclusion)
So is there no hope? Of course not, there is always hope. Look at the link below of Greg Mortenson who happens to be an American.
http://www.threecupsoftea.com/
You may ask, so why is a foreigner putting in all the effort and no locals. Great respect for Greg but locals do too, they have less influence and life is very hard they are making small but meaningful differences. The vast majority are not. As unlike Greg who is blessed to be in a country which is ultimately a “freeland”, Pakistani people feel even afraid to dream. Even to dream to see a prosperous country, the virus of terrorism gone and being able to pursue everyday life. At the same time they are on the defence as the whole world frequently points fingers at them and are constantly threatened by a hostile neighbour. This undermines their confidence and scares them even more.
Totally agree.
Pak is only 50 years old, for approx 200 years before that the Muslim minority population felt marginalised during British rule. When you see some of the human rights violation in Kashmir
http://www.combatlaw.org/information.ph ... cle_id=997
You will see why Pak worries that they have to defend themselves – as the consequences seem horrific. They feel belittled and helpless and exhausted of trying to make themselves understood. They are just people not monsters –they are just afraid!
Fantastic idea – if implemented with care. As long it is the cancer that is dealt with and the whole body is not killed in the process. A small number of terrorist residing in a population of approx 170Million should not be exerting so much destruction. I think it can be done but if it is done in a less humiliating manner then it will build bridges rather than make people feel like caged animals.
Pak president Ayub Khan(1958-1969) said “Friends not masters”.
Now I think I will banned from WP for posting the longest post ever!
Sorry!
04 Dec 2008, 5:48 pm
04 Dec 2008, 6:00 pm
techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,695
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi
04 Dec 2008, 6:11 pm
04 Dec 2008, 9:32 pm
In a word totally “agree” the majority does have to rise to this – this doesn’t happen as majority just wants to get on with peaceful and better life. Though that very concept eludes them because of their inaction.
The challenge is people as a group do not take responsibility.
You may be familiar with Bibb Latané’s concept of “diffusion of responsibility” in group situations. Also his “The Unresponsive Bystander” theory.
http://www.muskingum.edu/~psych/psycweb ... latane.htm
An example of was seen in Kitty Genovese murder. Whether one agrees with this concept or not, there are plenty of examples of this in history “Nazi Germany”, “ Spanish inquisition” etc..
To raise the masses (majority) to a cause, one needs leaders and organisation.
The situation on Pakistani is as following:
1) To deal with one evil (Soviet Union 1979-1989) several groups (Majuhidin) were supported but once the war was over “Taliban” took over the power void – another evil was born.
(Background history)
Afghanistan got invaded in 1979 by USSR (if you are young then this is the cold war time- strategically USSR invading Pak and getting to Warm waters would have been a catastrophe for the capitalist world). So after initial stand of 2 years by Pak (and then army govt – only really organised and reasonably sincere establishment in Pak & aid from China). Flood gates of military and intelligence help poured from USA & Saudi. This was great ,USSR pushed back but in the process the “modern” (as opposed to the old one) concept of “mujahidin” was born - they were sponsored, given monetary aid, CIA training (Osama Bin Laden) and an organisation to work from which was connected worldwide for funding and participation. War ends – Taleban take over all the other rival groups. Feeling abandonment, disgruntled warriors – known nothing but war – brain washed a bit (a lot)– kind of obvious. Very very misguided, flawed in thinking and causing people in general including Muslims great harm.
Due to open border policy between Pak and Afghan to accommodate refugees – there was/is great spill over of both the concept of “mujahidin” and the actual organisation/s.
The article below gives a good summary of the Soviet invasion, though it could have elaborated on psychological and socio impacts more.
http://nhs.needham.k12.ma.us/cur/baker_ ... -01_mj_sz/
2) Pakistan Social divide – 2-5% elite rules 95-98% population (legacy from British colonial days but to be honest was probably same in Mogul empire – I don’t know to be frank). Most Elite are happy with status co as it gives them power. Those who abhor the corrupt system and want to change the situation are quickly attacked by other “ruling class” and mostly leave the country.
(Background)
So the so called elite are the landlords or highly educated as well as influential people fall into following category:
a) Very corrupt and will sell the country for money – practically all of the present ruling Pak govt.
b) Ones who are educated, talented and sincere – leave the country in mass exodus as they get disgruntled by the hopelessness of extremely corrupt system. So the intellectual capital of the country leaves it at the first opportunity – imagine your best doctors, engineers, teachers, thinkers gone. Well they have to be best as they will hardly get jobs in the more developed world easily otherwise.
c) But not all go some stay – some even are brave and courageous to form a stand – these people get death threats and in some cases get murdered.
This is not very funny – but this happens.(Conclusion)
So is there no hope? Of course not, there is always hope. Look at the link below of Greg Mortenson who happens to be an American.
http://www.threecupsoftea.com/
You may ask, so why is a foreigner putting in all the effort and no locals. Great respect for Greg but locals do too, they have less influence and life is very hard they are making small but meaningful differences. The vast majority are not. As unlike Greg who is blessed to be in a country which is ultimately a “freeland”, Pakistani people feel even afraid to dream. Even to dream to see a prosperous country, the virus of terrorism gone and being able to pursue everyday life. At the same time they are on the defence as the whole world frequently points fingers at them and are constantly threatened by a hostile neighbour. This undermines their confidence and scares them even more.
Totally agree.
Pak is only 50 years old, for approx 200 years before that the Muslim minority population felt marginalised during British rule. When you see some of the human rights violation in Kashmir
http://www.combatlaw.org/information.ph ... cle_id=997
You will see why Pak worries that they have to defend themselves – as the consequences seem horrific. They feel belittled and helpless and exhausted of trying to make themselves understood. They are just people not monsters –they are just afraid!
Fantastic idea – if implemented with care. As long it is the cancer that is dealt with and the whole body is not killed in the process. A small number of terrorist residing in a population of approx 170Million should not be exerting so much destruction. I think it can be done but if it is done in a less humiliating manner then it will build bridges rather than make people feel like caged animals.
Pak president Ayub Khan(1958-1969) said “Friends not masters”.
Now I think I will banned from WP for posting the longest post ever!
Sorry!While, I do sympathize with many Muslims, the fact you single ou India with Kashmir is hypocritical considering the even larger atrocities that Pakistan has done, the worst being the quasi-genocide of many Bengals during the War of Bangladeshi Independece. And don't forget, the Islamic extremism in the area is a result of General Zia-ul-Haq and his Islamization of Pakistan. In fact, Pakistan help the very people (Taliban) who supported us up until a couple days before the invasion of Afghanistan.
I still think we should have invaded Pakistan after 9/11. The country was cut from portions of Iran, Afghanistan, and India by the British over 100 years ago. It would have been wise to invade Pakistan and break it back into it original shape.
08 Dec 2008, 11:26 am
While, I do sympathize with many Muslims, the fact you single ou India with Kashmir is hypocritical considering the even larger atrocities that Pakistan has done, the worst being the quasi-genocide of many Bengals during the War of Bangladeshi Independece. And don't forget, the Islamic extremism in the area is a result of General Zia-ul-Haq and his Islamization of Pakistan. In fact, Pakistan help the very people (Taliban) who supported us up until a couple days before the invasion of Afghanistan.
No I don't single out India and as you may have noted I agreed with someone's statement that “both sides need to grow up!”Re Bengal, it was formerly East Pakistan, not part of India. Yes, I agree with you (I am not aware of the full details of quasi-genocide) that terrible human rights violation took place against Bengalis (Bengalis are not Indian and Bangladesh is an independent country - not part of India). BTW the relationships between Bangladesh and Pakistan have since been on mend and there has been no risk of war between the two.
I still think we should have invaded Pakistan after 9/11. The country was cut from portions of Iran, Afghanistan, and India by the British over 100 years ago. It would have been wise to invade Pakistan and break it back into it original shape.
You are entitled to your opinion. I may not agree with you but I respect that your view may have very sound foundation in your belief system and your regional knowledge. So let’s agree to disagree!
Though reshaping internationally recognised sovereign boundaries based on centuries old historical divides seems a bit extreme. While we are at it may be we should hand back USA to the Native Americans - back into its original hands.
That was only a joke, let’s agree to disagree!
Thanks for posting the reply!
08 Dec 2008, 1:08 pm
08 Dec 2008, 4:30 pm
