The Logic of Suicide

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There was a post in another section of WP that got me thinking about this. I can't help but take the viewpoint that suicide is a logical decision, not an irrational one. While some thoughts of suicide may be irrational, for some of us, those who have had the desire for years and years, suicide is a purely logical, rational, decision.

The wish to end things follows from a natural law that is built into our world view, based on years and years of experience and observation. This natural law is equivalent to our assumptions on gravity, induction, behavior, what is possible, etc. Humans are built in order to naturally assume such things automatically, to not give a second thought into such things. If we had to follow the process of compressing all of life events, then forming a conclusion every time we think about the world, we would never get anywhere, it would take too long.

When we think of the law of gravity, we do not think about every single time we have seen something fall, then compress those experiences and apply them to the event present in front of ourselves. No, the law is built into our fundemental perceptions of the world and the way it operates. Same for other things, such as, walls don't talk, people don't fly, metal doesn't grow out of the ground, etc. We do not think about all of our past experiences, then compress them and apply the conclusion into each event we see. No, rather we have fundamental principles built into our perceptions of how things should be. These fundamental principles are immovable, for they are what makes navigating the world possible without being bogged down in referrring to our experiences each time we move about.

For some of us, the thought that tomorrow will not be better than today is built into our mind as a fundamental principle of how the world operates. Everything in my life tells me that tomorrow will be the same as today, much as everything in my life tells me that the tennis ball will fall to ground should it roll off the table. Everything that has happened in my life tells me that I will never get the girl, will never be happy, will never find relief, in exactly the same way that everything in my life has shown that something that falls out of my hand will fall downwards, that water will be wet, that this wall won't talk back to me, etc.

The abilities of my brain that allow me to navigate life without having to think about all of my experiences before forming a conclusion, also trap me into having the perception that things will not get better. To think that tomorrow will be better is equivalent to thinking that the tennis ball will fall upwards should it roll off the table. To believe that I will ever find someone would be the equivalent of thinking that water will be dry the next time I touch it.

Yes, we can think that the ball will fall upwards, but can we convince ourselves that it truly will??? No. We can think about what it would be like for water to feel dry the next time we touch it, but we cannot truly convince ourselves that that is how the world operates. These are the fundamental principles upon which our view of the world is built, and nothing in our brains can move the foundation of these principles. The only way that these principles would change would be from purely external reasons. Should I see that gravity no longer applies on earth, and experience it, would be the only way to change the principle that I hold that everything will fall down. To feel water as something dry would be the only way to change the principle that all water is wet. There is nothing that I can do to change these principles, they can only be shifted through experience, not thought. Our beliefs always follow our experiences, never the other way around.

Everything in life shows me that death will bring relief from pain, and everything in life shows me that tomorrow will not bring that relief. I can fantasize that tomorrow will be different, I can even imagine what that would be like, but, I cannot truly cement such a proposition into the fundamental principles that I already hold without an external experience.

I believe that this is why I have always felt a wall between picturing a better tomorrow and acutally believing it. It is an impossibility to truly convince myself that relief will come tomorrow, so no matter how hard I try I will never be able to do it. The belief that tomorrow will be better must come from an external source, it cannot be an internal shift that allows this perception of the world to take hold.

Of course this line of thinking discounts faith, and other types of spiritual beliefs, but I have none, these are dead ends as far as my options are concerned. In the end, suicide is a rational decision, as rational as the law of gravity. Everything in my life speaks for it, nothing against it. Life, life is irrational, to believe in a better tomorrow is to believe that the tennis ball will fall upwards tomorrow. That my salvation depends on purely external events makes me a little uncomfortable. To think that only a miracle that I do not believe in can save me scares the heck out of me. However, should this be the truth, I cannot run away from it, but only wait until an external event happens in my life to change my perceptions. A change of this magnitude cannot come from within. There is no thinking my way out of this, no convincing myself, no believing. Am I wrong?

Yes

Although, I understand your reasoning.

Faith and religion stem from Meditation - Maybe you dont have a place for faith because the faith you encounter is mostly fabricated garbage that means little if you don't understand or believe in it.

As well, there has to be something of interest for you in this world. Its the same everyday because you want it to be the same everyday. What you vision in your mind is mirrored into the world infront of you. Most believe they can't change because of the sheer fact they dont want to see it.

I used to think down this line. One day I kind of got interested in Philosophy. Dont ask how, it was almost "just like that" but since then, I've used my time to think about it.

Each day, I go to work and I come home and do the same thing, however, while what I do is the same, what I study or think about is different and improving everyday. Everyday I learn something new. So while that tennis ball may always fall downwards, it wont necessarily always fall on the same spot.

Life is what you want it to be. If you want it to be an optionless world then you will not look for options as its what you want. If you believe that there is more to this world then you'll be surprised to find that there is.

Every night, in my meditation, I learn something. Something about myself and something about society. My thoughts are never the same. Albert Einstein made a quote, I cant remember it, but it was down the lines of 'Even though I am alone in society, my connection to this universe allows me to never feel alone.' or something

Thank you for your reply Corvus, however, I don't think you understand what I was trying to say. My conception of faith has little or nothing to do with religion, in fact I believe that most people who practice religion have no faith at all. They believe, but they do not believe. My conception of faith has to do with believing (in the sense that it is cemented in my worldview, not just any belief that I entertain for comfort) the impossible, putting logic to rest and leaving things up to chance. This of course is an extremely oversimplified view, but the direction that I lean towards.

My world is not the same everyday because I want to be, nothing could be further from the truth. What is envisioned in my mind is a mirror of the world, not the other way around (although it can be said that our perception of the world is a product of our mind, but this is a different line of thought entirely from which I aim). As I said, belief follows experience, not the other way around.

Life is not what we want it to be, far from it, although the two are closely related. We cannot believe what has not happened (which gets into the subject of faith again), but we can accept that tomorrow is unknown. But, there are limits on what exactly this 'unknown' is. We cannot envision tomorrow without the sun (we can, but not in the sense that it is cemented into our worldview, for if it truly were cemented, everyone would be running around as if their heads were cutoff). We cannot believe that tomorrow we won't need to eat (if we truly did, we would throw out the refrigerator tonight for it would just be wasting electricity). I am concerned with changing the immovable, not accepting the parts that can be moved.

I learn something new everyday also, I devour philosophy books and neuroscientifical studies, but this is not the problem with which I am concerned, for everything I learn today is based on what I already know and believe. I am not interested in shaping my hierarchy of my knowledge or logical conclusions as much as I want to replace the whole system, yet retain what I already know (there is room for faith and knowledge in our lives).

All of my thoughts are the product of a system imbedded in my perceptions, such that I am interested in changing the system moreso than using it come to any more conclusions. I.e, I want to replace the tree, not shape the branches which grow off of it. I am aware that the ball could fall anywhere, but I want to believe that it will not fall at all. The fact that I believe that the ball will fall at all is the problem, for it is attached to a system of beliefs of which I am trapped. I want to replace the system, not draw conclusions from it. Everything in our thoughts and beliefs are shaped by things which lie at the bottom (these things are formed through experience, for they cannot be formed any other way, i.e, the law of gravity, induction, metal can't talk, etc.). These are the scales in which we use to weight the evidence. We do not think about the scales when we weigh things, only the reading on the scales. The scales are in the background, beyond our conscious thought (as such we see people arguing about who is right about the war using facts, when actually the reasons they provide are a product of their beliefs, they are not used to arrive at their beliefs as many people falsely believe). I do not want to adjust the scales, but use a different method of weighing things.

I believe in options, but I do not believe them. As I said before, you can imagine that the ball will fall upwards, but should I let a bowling ball drop over your head, your instincts will be to move. Thus proving that your belief that the ball will fall upwards was not cemented into your worldview. What I want is to stay put when the bowling ball falls above me.

I guess what I am trying to say is that: there are beliefs, and there are beliefs. The former can be shaped by our thoughts, the latter only by experience. The second is the only one with which I am concerned.

I not trying to point out where you went wrong as much as I am trying to get you to understand what I am trying to say, because only then will dialouge and advice be relevant. It may be that the beliefs of which I speak are imbedded in the movable part of your perceptions, for me they are not, thus we will never understand each other.

Oh, Eistein believed that the laws of the universe was the window to God's mind, thus his view was actually a view of faith, with ties to a belief in God. Thus, his anger at the thought that quantum mechanics could be a plausible description of the universe. To Einstien, logic was
God.

Cheers...

Yup, I'm the same page with you with now, I think.

So, are you saying suicide is a viable option, should one want to seek it out of a philosophical idea and not out of a depressional idea?

No, I am not advocating sucide in any way. Whether the justification is philosophical or depressional is irrelevant. I am not looking for a justification, rather an explanation for why all of my efforts to change my worldview has not come to fruition. And, should this be the case, how to go about changing something internally, that can only be changed through an external experience (which my ultimate conclusion has been that it is impossible). Am I left then to wait for such an external event? Am I left then to simply go about changing the limits around what cannot be changed? If so, then my only option would seem to be to change the things that will improve the odds of such an external event happening, not changing the view itself.

There are all sorts of maxims which deal with "changing" our life through our perceptions (life is what you make of it, if its to be, its up to me, etc.), yet they all fail their intended purpose for it seems that those who adhere to such maxims don't need them, and those who desperately do need them, they are of no help. Perhaps, it is time to abondon such slogans and push on through attempts to change things that will help bring such an external event to light, and forget about changing the view itself.

It is illogical because once someone has committed suicide, there is no chance for that person to go back and re-think their actions. I do not see the logic in deliberately ending someone's life.

Someone here called suicide "a permanent solution to a temporary problem." I agree.

Hmm... that sounds like something I may have said, but I'm not sure. Or maybe that was one of the members who left and is no longer around. Hard to tell for sure.

I think the key is instead of spending all your energy trying to change your view, maybe you could try spending your energy finding out what your view actually is. Or finding something that you can learn more of each day, and therefore that knowledge changes your perception of the world.

Meaning to be able to enjoy what you do, is more important than trying to change how you see it?

The view itself will only change as you push towards something, success and failure and the experience you can gain will only come to you as you strive towards something, whether you can do it or not..

Suicide is ilogical and logical at the same time. For instance, It is normal for a depressed person to want to do that. But the illogical side is that it is not necessarily the right thing to do; unethical, and can be prevented. I think that logic cannot be prevented, because it is truth. Illogic is easy to see that it is wrong; So with someone to be able to see logic for truth and illogic for falacy, we see that there is nothing in between truth or logic, other than expression.

We may use suicide as an expression.

'Logical' is subjective. Each to their own I say.

I have quoted this before. It is something i recall from a Richard Bandler lecture.

Suicide and Logic are completely different fields.
It is not logical to believe that the act of suicide is logical.

Maybe the moot question should be "Is life worth living?"

Personally, I have found that people who lack faith the most seem to be the ones most prone to committing suicde.

With that said, faith in some thing, some one, or some God is not easily attained.

Additionally, people tend to misunderstand theconcept of faith. Imicit in faith is trust that whomever or whatever it is you put your faith in will do whatever is best for you. But what is best for you ay not be what you WANT, only what you NEED, and sometimes people do not know what they NEED and tend to weigh the value of faith based on what was WANTED.

My opinion is that regardless of how much we are out of control in our lives, and no matter how much we are left to our own devices to fend for ourselve, tere is always a chance that things may improve through natural or supernatural means.

Granted, there is always the chance that things will get WORSE. One can never tell.

You also have to recognize that making the impossible possible is sometimes a matter of your own will, and that willing some change or other to hppen in your life may require a lot of energy.

It's sort of like building furniture out of slabs of wood. You have a concept, and you make it real. It takes learning, planning, skill, and hard work to make it happen, but the furniture CAN get made.

As much as I have had so many bad things happen to me in my life, I try to rely more upon myself than I used to, and trust in God to help me through. Because of this faith in my own abilities and especially in God, I now have less and less desire to kill myself with each passing day.