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Did Jesus really exist?
Yes 74%  74%  [ 31 ]
No 26%  26%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 42

TheGoggles
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16 Feb 2014, 6:34 pm

appletheclown wrote:
Plus, those were pre-israel Jews. Ancient Jews. Compared to Egypt, they were pretty tame. They didn't sacrifice children like the pagans did.


Ooooh, I don't know about that. According to the rules of engagement delivered directly from Yahweh himself, when the Jewish army attacks a pagan village they are to kill every living thing except the virgin girls, who they may take as wives if they wish.

Quote:
I think the point is to note how xenophobic and racially supremacist the bible can be. According to John that is Jesus too.


There was a Canaanite woman who asked Jesus to perform an exorcism. Jesus directed a racial slur at her (it essentially meant "dog") and refused until the disciples finally told him to stop being a jerk.



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16 Feb 2014, 6:50 pm

Any chance you guys can correct the error which is causing a false quote from myself. :?


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16 Feb 2014, 7:34 pm

TheGoggles wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
Plus, those were pre-israel Jews. Ancient Jews. Compared to Egypt, they were pretty tame. They didn't sacrifice children like the pagans did.


Ooooh, I don't know about that. According to the rules of engagement delivered directly from Yahweh himself, when the Jewish army attacks a pagan village they are to kill every living thing except the virgin girls, who they may take as wives if they wish.

Quote:
I think the point is to note how xenophobic and racially supremacist the bible can be. According to John that is Jesus too.


There was a Canaanite woman who asked Jesus to perform an exorcism. Jesus directed a racial slur at her (it essentially meant "dog") and refused until the disciples finally told him to stop being a jerk.


Quote the verses where they "took the little virgin girls" is said word for word.

Jesus refused so because he despises people who hurt children. He would have called the lady a yank or cr****r if she had been white.

Deuteronomy 18:9-13 ESV

When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Matthew 18:6 ESV
Jesus:
"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."


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16 Feb 2014, 7:55 pm

Max000 wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
Max000 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
aghogday wrote:
And regardless of who wrote those gospels in the New Testament..those jewels that do continue in the written words there...
have saved so many lives.../quote]

Really, you spoken to any Jews recently. :roll:


But really, when have Jews been killed by American Christians?



I could make an endless list, but here is just one example. Your book sucks. It inspires violence. You may ignore the bad parts of it, but not everyone does.

The murder of Alan Berg in Denver: 25 years later
"In a sense, it was one of the opening shots of a truly revolutionary radical right."


That is about white supremacists. Not republicans. Keep yelling racist at every religious person, it will get you nowhere.
The bible has nothing to do with racism. Nowhere in the entire bible is racism even a part of anything.


Read the article. He was killed by the Christian Identity movement. Christians like it or not. You people are unbelievable. You just blow off all the bad things people do in the name of your crappy religion.

And the bible is filled with racism, and every other sick perversion known to man.

Exodus 12:29-30
New International Version (NIV)
29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.

Exodus 34:4-11
New International Version
Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.


Samuel 15:2-3
New International Version (NIV)
2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Numbers 31:17-18
King James Version (KJV)
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Genesis 19:24-25
New International Version (NIV)
24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.

Samuel 27:8-12
New International Version (NIV)
8 Now David and his men went up and raided the Geshurites, the Girzites and the Amalekites. (From ancient times these peoples had lived in the land extending to Shur and Egypt.) 9 Whenever David attacked an area, he did not leave a man or woman alive, but took sheep and cattle, donkeys and camels, and clothes. Then he returned to Achish.

Kings 10:19-27
New International Version (NIV)
As soon as Jehu had finished making the burnt offering, he ordered the guards and officers: “Go in and kill them; let no one escape.” So they cut them down with the sword. The guards and officers threw the bodies out and then entered the inner shrine of the temple of Baal. 26 They brought the sacred stone out of the temple of Baal and burned it. 27 They demolished the sacred stone of Baal and tore down the temple of Baal, and people have used it for a latrine to this day.

Nehemiah 13:23-30
English Standard Version (ESV)
23 In those days also I saw the Jews who had married women of Ashdod, Ammon, and Moab. 24 And half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod, and they could not speak the language of Judah, but only the language of each people. 25 And I confronted them and cursed them and beat some of them and pulled out their hair. And I made them take an oath in the name of God, saying, “You shall not give your daughters to their sons, or take their daughters for your sons or for yourselves. 26 Did not Solomon king of Israel sin on account of such women? Among the many nations there was no king like him, and he was beloved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel. Nevertheless, foreign women made even him to sin. 27 Shall we then listen to you and do all this great evil and act treacherously against our God by marrying foreign women?”

Deuteronomy 23:3
New International Version (NIV)
3 No Ammonite or Moabite or any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation

Nehemiah 13-
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Foreigners Excluded

13 On that day they read aloud from the book of Moses in the hearing of the people; and there was found written in it that no Ammonite or Moabite should ever enter the assembly of God, 2 because they did not meet the sons of Israel with bread and water, but hired Balaam against them to curse them. However, our God turned the curse into a blessing. 3 So when they heard the law, they excluded all foreigners from Israel.


I could go on, but this is making me sick to my stomach , just reading this garbage. :eew:


The White Christian Identity movement doesn't represent all Christianity anymore than Al Qaeda represents all Islam. In fact, as the white race is paramount to the Identity movement, rather than Christ, it's only relation to Christianity is it's name. Just because a few fanatics choose to dirty the name of Christianity in this day and age shouldn't reflect badly on all Christians, no more than Bin Laden should be allowed to dirty the reputations of all Muslims.
And those passages you sited? That's all in the OT. Complain to ruveyn, if you dare, about Judaism. But read what Paul has to say about the brotherhood of Christianity, where he tells believers that there is no longer any difference between Jews or Gentiles, Greeks or Barbarians, Romans or Scythians, slave or free, man or woman - all are one in Christ. Sounds like a pretty anti-racist statement to me.


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16 Feb 2014, 8:07 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
aghogday wrote:
And regardless of who wrote those gospels in the New Testament..those jewels that do continue in the written words there...
have saved so many lives...


Really, you spoken to any Jews recently. :roll:


But really, when have Jews been killed by American Christians? And with the most recent mass murder of Jews by Europeans in the Holocaust, while Hitler and the Nazis had been raised in Christian homes, most of them had lost their religiosity by adulthood. And during the Second World War, it's a fact that church attendance in Germany was at it's very lowest, with most Germans falling for astrology and mysticism.


The writers in the new testament managed to blame the jews for the death of christ. Mark and Mathew are especially anti semitic. This blaming jews for Jesus's death has led to pograms, massacres and abuse at the hands of christians for centuries. I have not got the time right now to dig out the references but many of the anti-semitic passages have forged authorship.


The truth is, the reference to "the Jews" was directed at the Jewish religious leaders who had collaborated with the Romans, who Jesus had criticized, and who had handed Jesus over to Pilate. This was understood at the time the Bible was written. Unfortunately, Christians in later times had used such passages to justify prejudice against Jews, who they saw as unassimilated strangers. But the question is - - does this fairly characterize most Christians today? I really think it does not.


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16 Feb 2014, 8:45 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

The writers in the new testament managed to blame the jews for the death of christ. Mark and Mathew are especially anti semitic. This blaming jews for Jesus's death has led to pograms, massacres and abuse at the hands of christians for centuries. I have not got the time right now to dig out the references but many of the anti-semitic passages have forged authorship.


The truth is, the reference to "the Jews" was directed at the Jewish religious leaders who had collaborated with the Romans, who Jesus had criticized, and who had handed Jesus over to Pilate. This was understood at the time the Bible was written. Unfortunately, Christians in later times had used such passages to justify prejudice against Jews, who they saw as unassimilated strangers. But the question is - - does this fairly characterize most Christians today? I really think it does not.[/quote]

The Gospel According to John is Anti-Semitic to the bone. It refers to the Jews (collectively) as members of the Synagogue of Satan. John hated Jews or so his writing seems to imply.

At the time the Gospels were written 30-50 years after Jesus died, the Jews were no longer in charge of their land. The Romans had taken it over completely and destroyed the second Temple.



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16 Feb 2014, 10:08 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

The writers in the new testament managed to blame the jews for the death of christ. Mark and Mathew are especially anti semitic. This blaming jews for Jesus's death has led to pograms, massacres and abuse at the hands of christians for centuries. I have not got the time right now to dig out the references but many of the anti-semitic passages have forged authorship.


The truth is, the reference to "the Jews" was directed at the Jewish religious leaders who had collaborated with the Romans, who Jesus had criticized, and who had handed Jesus over to Pilate. This was understood at the time the Bible was written. Unfortunately, Christians in later times had used such passages to justify prejudice against Jews, who they saw as unassimilated strangers. But the question is - - does this fairly characterize most Christians today? I really think it does not.


The Gospel According to John is Anti-Semitic to the bone. It refers to the Jews (collectively) as members of the Synagogue of Satan. John hated Jews or so his writing seems to imply.

At the time the Gospels were written 30-50 years after Jesus died, the Jews were no longer in charge of their land. The Romans had taken it over completely and destroyed the second Temple.[/quote]

Last time I checked, John, as Jesus, was Jewish. And while there was obviously hostilities between Jews and Christians, a great many Christians were still of Jewish origins, so it was certainly not a matter of ethnicity or culture. And I suspect the charge of "Synagog of Satan" was directed at those Jews who had actively persecuted the early church along with the Romans - and thus, not every Jew was included in that.


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Max000
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16 Feb 2014, 10:51 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Max000 wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
Max000 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
aghogday wrote:
And regardless of who wrote those gospels in the New Testament..those jewels that do continue in the written words there...
have saved so many lives.../quote]

Really, you spoken to any Jews recently. :roll:


But really, when have Jews been killed by American Christians?



I could make an endless list, but here is just one example. Your book sucks. It inspires violence. You may ignore the bad parts of it, but not everyone does.

The murder of Alan Berg in Denver: 25 years later
"In a sense, it was one of the opening shots of a truly revolutionary radical right."


That is about white supremacists. Not republicans. Keep yelling racist at every religious person, it will get you nowhere.
The bible has nothing to do with racism. Nowhere in the entire bible is racism even a part of anything.


Read the article. He was killed by the Christian Identity movement. Christians like it or not. You people are unbelievable. You just blow off all the bad things people do in the name of your crappy religion.

And the bible is filled with racism, and every other sick perversion known to man.

Exodus 12:29-30
New International Version (NIV)
29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.

Exodus 34:4-11
New International Version
Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.


Samuel 15:2-3
New International Version (NIV)
2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Numbers 31:17-18
King James Version (KJV)
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Genesis 19:24-25
New International Version (NIV)
24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.

Samuel 27:8-12
New International Version (NIV)
8 Now David and his men went up and raided the Geshurites, the Girzites and the Amalekites. (From ancient times these peoples had lived in the land extending to Shur and Egypt.) 9 Whenever David attacked an area, he did not leave a man or woman alive, but took sheep and cattle, donkeys and camels, and clothes. Then he returned to Achish.

Kings 10:19-27
New International Version (NIV)
As soon as Jehu had finished making the burnt offering, he ordered the guards and officers: “Go in and kill them; let no one escape.” So they cut them down with the sword. The guards and officers threw the bodies out and then entered the inner shrine of the temple of Baal. 26 They brought the sacred stone out of the temple of Baal and burned it. 27 They demolished the sacred stone of Baal and tore down the temple of Baal, and people have used it for a latrine to this day.

Nehemiah 13:23-30
English Standard Version (ESV)
23 In those days also I saw the Jews who had married women of Ashdod, Ammon, and Moab. 24 And half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod, and they could not speak the language of Judah, but only the language of each people. 25 And I confronted them and cursed them and beat some of them and pulled out their hair. And I made them take an oath in the name of God, saying, “You shall not give your daughters to their sons, or take their daughters for your sons or for yourselves. 26 Did not Solomon king of Israel sin on account of such women? Among the many nations there was no king like him, and he was beloved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel. Nevertheless, foreign women made even him to sin. 27 Shall we then listen to you and do all this great evil and act treacherously against our God by marrying foreign women?”

Deuteronomy 23:3
New International Version (NIV)
3 No Ammonite or Moabite or any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation

Nehemiah 13-
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Foreigners Excluded

13 On that day they read aloud from the book of Moses in the hearing of the people; and there was found written in it that no Ammonite or Moabite should ever enter the assembly of God, 2 because they did not meet the sons of Israel with bread and water, but hired Balaam against them to curse them. However, our God turned the curse into a blessing. 3 So when they heard the law, they excluded all foreigners from Israel.


I could go on, but this is making me sick to my stomach , just reading this garbage. :eew:


The White Christian Identity movement doesn't represent all Christianity anymore than Al Qaeda represents all Islam.


Of course it doesn't. Christianity includes thousands of different fractions, of which the Christian Identity movement is just one. But none the less, they are all Christians. They are followers of Jesus Christ, and they all follow their interpretation of the bible.

The point is that you can't say look at all the good things about Christianity. While ignoring all the bad things that Christians do. Well, actually you can. That might work for you, but it's not going to work for anyone outside of your religion who is trying to objectively evaluate Christianity.

As for the bible, it is a mishmash of different irrelevant philosophical writings all thrown together. Much of which is the most vial disgusting crap that has ever been written. I know you just like to pretend that those parts don't exist. But they do exist, and other fractions of Christianity use them to justify doing terrible things. You can justify anything you want with the bible. Just pick and choose what parts you want to use.

Over all what every is good about Christianity is far outnumber by the bad.



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16 Feb 2014, 11:08 pm

Hey guys if you are going to quote people will you make sure that it is done correctly. There are now two major errors involving me. One attributes something I did not say to me, and the other attributes something I did say to someone else!


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16 Feb 2014, 11:19 pm

Really? Everything bad about Christianity outnumbers the good? Sure, in the long ago past, Christians had behaved badly, but no one care seriously say that that applies to Christianity today. And the White Christian Identity movement, as I said, is Christian in name only, with no connection to Christ's call to love your neighbor. And sure, today homophobia and other social stances I despise are still promoted by many denominations (including my own), but I and millions of other Christians vote our conscience rather than the dictates of our churches. And what modern church seriously commits acts of violence today? Today, mainline Protestants, Catholics, and even many evangelicals see care for the needy and loving ones neighbor to be the highest response to Christ's love. Sure, there are always little, flyspeck groups that are guilty of distorting Christ's message, but what actions by most Christians in this day and age can be construed as construed as bad, outnumbering the good?


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17 Feb 2014, 6:32 am

Kraichgauer so you think that an organisation/belief which has as its founding writings forgeries demanding the 'truth', which deliberately lied and conspired to defeat its Orthodox jewish detractors to the point of pograms. Which whilst discarding the ancient jewish laws still maintains them when it suits, especially the really nasty vindictive stuff, which is homophobic, which does denigrate women, which does promote and support war, which does prevent advances in medicine, which does attempt to subvert the teaching of facts, as ok because it is not as bad as it used to be, and it does after all, do some good?

You seem to attribute a kind of blood price to christianity, ie there is a price to pay for the good it does. Well I am sorry but I think the blood price is far too high.

But we digress, the point of me bringing up anti semitism in the first place was to counter Aghod's claim that why should it matter that much in the gospels have dubious/forged authorship. After all, whoever wrote them the gospels have never hurt anyone. To paraphrase 'its commonsense dude'. This is a position held from ignorance, it fails to see the harm done by writers claiming to be Paul, Peter, Nicodemus etc. These authors wrote in a time of turmoil and used the names of respected authors to get their perspective heard and the result has been untold misery.

The christians you rail against are not aberrant, they are a product of the religion itself. What do you expect from a collection of random stories, written by ghost authors who, faking their identity attack and contradict each other. Remember the start of this part of the discussion where you were surprised to learn that there was any dispute over the authorship of the Pauline letters? Guess you need to do some reading and understand the origins of your religion.


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17 Feb 2014, 7:15 am

Dent you know, for someone who spends so long protesting the use of selective evidence, you do do engage in a fair amount of it yourself. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.


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17 Feb 2014, 12:39 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Really? Everything bad about Christianity outnumbers the good?


Yes, tell the millions of people who have been murdered in the name of Christianity, how good your religion is. :roll:

VICTIMS OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH



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17 Feb 2014, 1:15 pm

Max000 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Really? Everything bad about Christianity outnumbers the good?


Yes, tell the millions of people who have been murdered in the name of Christianity, how good your religion is. :roll:

VICTIMS OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

But can you honestly say that applies to today? I am not responsible for the actions of my ancestors, or for the actions of the adherents of my religion in the past, anymore than you are. And in the past, there was definitely a political and economic component to long past Christian so called holy wars, such as the Crusades, and the Thirty Years War, which historians will tell you Christianity was only used as a pretext.


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17 Feb 2014, 1:40 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Kraichgauer so you think that an organisation/belief which has as its founding writings forgeries demanding the 'truth', which deliberately lied and conspired to defeat its Orthodox jewish detractors to the point of pograms. Which whilst discarding the ancient jewish laws still maintains them when it suits, especially the really nasty vindictive stuff, which is homophobic, which does denigrate women, which does promote and support war, which does prevent advances in medicine, which does attempt to subvert the teaching of facts, as ok because it is not as bad as it used to be, and it does after all, do some good?

You seem to attribute a kind of blood price to christianity, ie there is a price to pay for the good it does. Well I am sorry but I think the blood price is far too high.

But we digress, the point of me bringing up anti semitism in the first place was to counter Aghod's claim that why should it matter that much in the gospels have dubious/forged authorship. After all, whoever wrote them the gospels have never hurt anyone. To paraphrase 'its commonsense dude'. This is a position held from ignorance, it fails to see the harm done by writers claiming to be Paul, Peter, Nicodemus etc. These authors wrote in a time of turmoil and used the names of respected authors to get their perspective heard and the result has been untold misery.

The christians you rail against are not aberrant, they are a product of the religion itself. What do you expect from a collection of random stories, written by ghost authors who, faking their identity attack and contradict each other. Remember the start of this part of the discussion where you were surprised to learn that there was any dispute over the authorship of the Pauline letters? Guess you need to do some reading and understand the origins of your religion.


Sure, bad people have been produced by religion - but so have good people. Have you forgotten that the civil rights movement was led by Christian pastors, like Martin Luther King Jr? And sure, Christian leaders have used their religion to justify wars for ungodly goals - but just as many Christians, from Christ, to Martin Luther, to Martin Luther King Jr. had opposed war. And have you forgotten about those brave German clergy such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer who had died at the hands of the Nazis for following the dictates of the Christianity they had been raised with?
As as far as the authorship of the Gospels and Paul's letters being in doubt - that is seriously just biased opinion. And as that issue is hardly going to be resolved here, I seriously don't see a need to argue it any longer.


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17 Feb 2014, 2:03 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Kraichgauer so you think that an organisation/belief which has as its founding writings forgeries demanding the 'truth', which deliberately lied and conspired to defeat its Orthodox jewish detractors to the point of pograms. Which whilst discarding the ancient jewish laws still maintains them when it suits, especially the really nasty vindictive stuff, which is homophobic, which does denigrate women, which does promote and support war, which does prevent advances in medicine, which does attempt to subvert the teaching of facts, as ok because it is not as bad as it used to be, and it does after all, do some good?

You seem to attribute a kind of blood price to christianity, ie there is a price to pay for the good it does. Well I am sorry but I think the blood price is far too high.

But we digress, the point of me bringing up anti semitism in the first place was to counter Aghod's claim that why should it matter that much in the gospels have dubious/forged authorship. After all, whoever wrote them the gospels have never hurt anyone. To paraphrase 'its commonsense dude'. This is a position held from ignorance, it fails to see the harm done by writers claiming to be Paul, Peter, Nicodemus etc. These authors wrote in a time of turmoil and used the names of respected authors to get their perspective heard and the result has been untold misery.

The christians you rail against are not aberrant, they are a product of the religion itself. What do you expect from a collection of random stories, written by ghost authors who, faking their identity attack and contradict each other. Remember the start of this part of the discussion where you were surprised to learn that there was any dispute over the authorship of the Pauline letters? Guess you need to do some reading and understand the origins of your religion.


Dude..it's all about looking at the biggest picture possible..IF YA EVEN can OR WILL...

It seems to me ya are so mired in details..

i'm not sure how ya could find ya WAY to THE LIGHT OF FULL TRUTH like this..

As i too..was once 'SUNK' in similar shoes...

It's simply outstanding in my opinion..to lose details..

in favor of the much..much...much..

larger..panorama photo...

of

OVERALL
HUMAN
TRUTH(
S)

BUT FOR ONE THAT DOES NOT LIVE
'THERE'
IT SIMPLY DON'T
EXIST..

UNTIL THERE IS a breakthrough..
now or whENever..or who knows..
perhaps..
never...
that part..i hope more for you..than
that..seriously...

it ain't no fun living in the dark of that fuller human pan 'aroma'

of
TRUTH

BEEN THERE DUNIT..
AIN'T GOIN
BACK..THERE..
NEVER EVER NEVER
..I CERTAINLY
HOPE..
NOT
IN
ANY
WAY..
anyway...


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

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