I'm lost as to what to do

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Second tier concern. All issues are not equal.

pddtwinmom -- I agree safety issues require heightened urgency. Unfortunately, if it was as simple as impressing upon S1 the seriousness of never hurting his brother the consequences used to date probably would've taken care of the problem. I suspect S1 is somewhat out of control during these episodes, and that more severe consequences are unlikely to improve his ability to control himself. If the situation is truly unsafe, maybe the OP needs to ensure the two boys are never alone together until she can get help and things start turning around. She knows best whether that is the case or whether they should be able to muddle along for many months as they figure things out.

Hopefully the appt the OP has in two weeks will lead to therapy that is helpful. The books I suggested are not a quick fix, just something I thought might be helpful long-term.

I don't know about that, in this case. It was shocking to hear how my son perceived things, and how hurt he was by the ways we were handling things. You cannot ignore that side. I know you have to prioritize physical safety, but you also have to work actively on making sure the aggressive ASD child feels protected and valued, too. To my son, no one was willing to make sure he was safe. He couldn't see the how he was a bigger threat to his younger sister than she was to him. To him, it was all the same, and he felt in physical danger from her, despite that seeming ridiculous to us.

Hence, having to be more proactive at prevention and instruction. Don't ALLOW things to get to where you have to take sides. STOP what is going on before the older child reacts to it. Let him SEE you keep him "safe" from the younger child.

Give your older child some safe space in which to mature and learn more self-control. He can't do that while he feels under constant threat and/or harassment from the younger child, and that IS how my son felt, regardless of how overblown I thought his position was.

Thankfully, for us, I think we discovered my son's perception before it was too deeply ingrained. But there is still that memory and hurt there, he will never forget. But, at least, he knows we turned around and did our best for him as soon as we understood how it all looked from his side. He needed to see that. He can accept that no one is perfect, including his parents.

My daughter has no lingering fears that I am aware of, nor any sense that we favor her brother over her that she has expressed. She had no trouble understanding that in order to keep her safe, we had to make her brother feel more safe, and also feel that she was bearing consequences for her actions. She still adores teasing him to death, but has gotten better at understanding time and place. She no longer is like a moth to a flame completely unable to resist her own impulses. She had not realized just how much that needling was hurting him; she needed to know and understand that in order to start really paying attention to her own actions. Now, all those were delicate conversations, because I did NOT want to set up her for accepting an abusive relationship someday down the road, thinking that violence is EVER an appropriate reaction to the kinds of things she had done. I have experience with issues of abuse and we talked a lot about that, too.

Gosh I wish there was training for this job!

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 19 Jun 2014, 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zette - I totally get that. And to be fair, I never suggested punishing S1 more severely. I actually think that there are several more reasonable approaches to get him to modify his behavior. My concern was for the idea that the solution lay in getting S2(10 yrs old!) to modify his behavior, when, imo, he is still a child and in full possession of his right to safety, regardless of behavior. That changes when you're an adult, but it's a parent's responsibility to uphold those protections for their young children. I also believe that's an important lesson to teach S1.

There was an implied parity argument in play, when I just don't think that there can be parity between any perceived slight and the physical welfare of a child (S1 included, if it were his person in danger). One always trumps the other. So, I was a bit disappointed that the suggestions for solutions didn't focus on that.

Footnote: "Danger" constitutes being on (or having the potential to be on) the receiving end of an uncontrolled and/or unpredictable attack by someone who in the moment does not have any concern for your person or well-being. Does not include: spanking, peer-peer fighting, rough-housing, etc, where the rules and limits are clearly understood.

DW_Mom - I can see how that could be the case. I know that the ASD child can have a different take on things. And I know how important it is to empathize with that side, and try to see things through their eyes.

But, then there's reality. And in reality, hurting someone physically for throwing a piece of bread in the sink is not a fair exchange. The transaction is unequal. Even if the original child thinks it is - it's not. And if we act like it is, or try to make our NT kids accomplices catering to this warped set of expectations, we run the risk of causing damage to those NT kids. So, we are, de facto, choosing one over the other.

That may be necessary in some cases. I'm not saying it's not. But, if so, let's call it what it is. It is grossly unfair that a 10 yr old boy should be afraid of being severely beaten by his brother. He shouldn't have to bend over backwards to accommodate his brother - not at 10. His parents should. I'm not judging the parents at all - it's obvious that they love their children and are looking for solutions. But, I am judging the responses posted here a little - the ones that casually threw out that the 10 yr old should change his behavior, or worse, be punished after the fact as an answer. That feels like an explicit choice of one child over the other to me.

You aren't giving enough credit to ten year olds.

Granted, my younger one was a girl and, thus, a little more mature than a boy the same age is likely to be, but we were most definitely able to have effective conversations with her once we understood better just how deeply her actions were bothering her brother.

All in all, my point remains unchanged: the parent has to be actively involved with the kids, keeping things well supervised, and mitigating the conflicts before they've blown up and created a dangerous situation. We do it when our kids are toddlers together, then you get a respite, and then they enter phases where you have to do it again. The point to talking about how all this appears from the side of the older ASD child isn't to get parents to "blame" the younger child more, but to get the older child to FEEL there is more parity than he currently feels he is experiencing. That can be done without making the younger child feel blamed. The key is being involved as a parent before things escalate. Been there, done that, and kind of resent that you think the only posts on this concept are from people who have no idea what ten year olds are capable of. Or do I just have the most brilliant and mature kids on the planet?

[Can't get the quote tool to work] "Gosh I wish there was training for this job!"

I wish, too!

I have downloaded The Explosive Child to my Kindle. Thank you for the suggestion.

I did want to take the time apologize to anyone I've offended with the strength of my responses here. I do feel strongly about this topic, and the language and wording I chose matches what is the norm for me professionally when we're discussing matters of great importance. That style may not have been appropriate for this forum, and if I hurt anyone, I apologize. And no, no one as Pm'd me! But, I know I can come on strong when I'm passionate about something, and this thread really struck a note for me. I do value this forum immensely, and I want to make sure that you all know that I do appreciate the opportunity to interact with you!

Since only one person here lives inside the situation posted about, which posts are most relevant are really for her to decide.

I came out strongly talking about one view of this largely because it is far too often ignored. A ten year old CAN understand the special needs of an older child and CAN work on modifying their behavior WITH HELP, and SHOULD have consequences from the PARENT for intentionally doing things to upset the older child.

I think I posted way at the beginning that NOTHING EVER EXCUSES VIOLENCE, and violence is NEVER AN APPROPRIATE REACTION. However, if you ONLY pay attention to that, you can't solve the problem. If you can't get your ASD child to understand that you DO care about his side and want to help him, you end up making the violence worse and creating a negative cycle from which you may never get out. Kids act out of violence when they feel they can't win. If they feel they can't win, they have no incentive to learn better ways to react and control their behavior. You are asking the older child to do what is, in reality, really hard work. He isn't going to do that unless he has some sense that things really will be better down the road, MUCH better.

Hence, my strong posting about understanding and doing SOMETHING to show you "see" the older child's side.

Am I right? Who knows; the kids will tell me in twenty years. What I DO know is that the violence is no longer an issue in our family, and that my daughter doesn't seem to have come away from our stepping in with any negative psychological impacts.

Truly, the only way to know if you are heading in the right direction for your unique kids or not is to be all in, ears and eyes to the ground, WITH both your kids observing and talking and being PROACTIVE. And I think the OP got that message. The rest of the debate is kind of theoretical; each parent is going to have to play it by ear knowing both sides of the question as outlined here.

To me, the important message to any parent dealing with this issue is that simply escalating consequences to the older child, and focusing solely on the older child's behavior is not, in my opinion, likely to solve the problem. You have to get more proactive in working with both children and mediating. I truly think that is the only way to safety (that and keeping them apart as much as is realistic given the family situation, of course - separation always helps).

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 19 Jun 2014, 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think with this approach you set yourself up to be wrapped around some little Iago's finger.

Oh Lord despite what I posted as my approach with a focus shift to the older child, I have more than once been accused of being 100% wrapped around my younger child's finger - and she does not deny it. Except when I am actually putting my foot down with her, of course. But, seriously, it is kind of a running joke - she is THAT good at knowing how to appeal to me.

Are you talking about my position or my apology? If my apology...huh? I don't get the reference.

If my position, I've been down the parenting road 5 times, so I'm not a newbie. The last two are the same age (twins, both ASD), so in essence, there is no "little Iago".

Very true! But, lots of people reference this forum looking for advice without posting. Now, they can see multiple points of view.

Which is always a good thing!

Sorry for the ambiguity, I was talking about the position, not the apology! And it's great that your family is all cool.

Now, I didn't say that.... Ha! As my husband and I say almost daily, "We've got a whole lot of kids. Whose idea was this??" With many kids come many problems. Sigh... But, we're mostly happy and sane!

DW_Mon - Absolutely!