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bizarre
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26 May 2007, 11:11 am

I think it was Alex intention that the members moderator themselves the only reason he made extras mods was because of Atomika-like attacks. The Mods were picked at
random to delete spam and ban spammers. If Mods start doing things like banning
members and deleting or editing their posts because they are in a bad mood or they
don't like the member, i feel members have the right to call them on that. If a
particular mod has such a thin-skin that they cannot handle any criticism at all they
probably should not be a Mod. Being a target for criticism is part of being a Mod. It
goes with the territory. I had a problem with one of the Mods and i tried to contact Alex
about it via PM and my mailbox was tampered with. I got upset about it. Nothing was
being done about it was very frustrating sorry for loosing my temper.

I do know what it's like being a Mod as i am the only moderator of a group of almost
400 members. It is not a AS group it has all kinds of ppl in it NT's, AS, people from all
over the world. I have never had a problem so far. It's pretty nice, everyone gets
along. Nothing has really even come up.

I think if everyone just ignored the spammers they would stop coming back and their
would be no need for the extras Moderators. It is no fun for spammers if no one
responds to their attacks. Instead of getting 50 replies to their messages!

Well basically what i wanted to state was just because a person is a Mod, does not make them above reproach.

(edited for spelling)


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TRUE
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26 May 2007, 1:51 pm

If people in general were able to moderate themselves, we also wouldn't need police or fire or ambulance personnel. Because everyone would obey the laws, would be very attentive to hazards and risks, and would be taking perfect care of their own health, their own homes, their own autos. We wouldn't have global warming or wars, we wouldn't need prisons and all that money could go to help the less fortunate.

People cannot moderate themselves. We all bring with us our own thoughts and opinions. And here, in Aspieland, we might do a lot of misinterpretation. I do that all the time. No one has defined all the words, as to what it means, in the rules of this site (or any site). They THINK it's clear to everyone. It's not.

YOU think that moderators should be targets of criticism. It depends on what they do. And I have the option of NOT staying on a forum, message board, or site that has moderators that are out of control. It's tough.

One doesn't want to leave their friends, or leave the place they are used to, but sometimes that has to be done. I've seen great sites and very poorly run sites. Poorly run sites end up being a home to trolls. Because nobody cares what goes on. Nobody is in control. There HAS to be some sort of control in effect because people DO NOT MODERATE THEMSELVES.

I do not understand how a mailbox online can be "tampered with". There are very few legal reasons that messages can be read if they are not addressed to the person to whom they were sent (or by who sent them).
http://www.cybercrime.gov/ECPA2701_2712.htm

The people that troll and attack should be ignored by the general membership AND dealt with by the moderators or staff of a site. It is unacceptable behavior. The same way that people who start throwing punches should be backed away from, to allow authorities to remove that person. Not fighting with them, or encouraging them, or doing much else but getting out of the way. Reasoning rarely works.

Open discussions on what should and shouldn't be allowed, as well as clarification of the existing rules would be a good thing. So we can know, ask questions, make comments. We can help point other members to that discussion to learn and contribute.

What exactly is meant by "mail box tampered with"? How do you know? What were the observed things?

In real life, I didn't even know I had mail stolen, somewhere along the line, until I got a letter from the Secret Service or something, asking if so and so had permission to have my mail in their residence. Huh? Um, no, they don't. As a result of that real life mail theft, I forgot about auto insurance payment, because I didn't GET the bill, and my insurance was canceled.

The insurance company didn't believe me when I said I never got the bill. They said I either got the bill, or it would have been returned to them. I was able to take the letter from the Secret Service to the auto insurance office to PROVE I had not gotten that bill.

As far as online stuff, there are enough glitches and server burps to wipe out a lot of things. Like that weird evening thing with the MySQL server problem here every night. If you tried to send something in, and the server was down, you lose your post. Oops.

I've had many computer crashes and freezes in the past. Lost my post or mail. And I've lost two hard drives, so I lose everything. I've been on websites that update and switch message board styles, and they lose all the old posts. THOUSANDS of old posts just disappear. They promise it won't happen and it does. They promised a second time that it wouldn't happen, and it happened again.

So, we should know if the folks are reading our PMs and why. I am definitely behind protecting children from predators. Protecting ANYONE from predators. But I am against reading PMs for jollies. It's nobodies business what occurs via PM if it is not illegal, immoral, or unethical.



Sopho
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26 May 2007, 2:11 pm

I thought moderators couldn't read PMs?



bizarre
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26 May 2007, 2:38 pm

TRUE wrote:
If people in general were able to moderate themselves, we also wouldn't need police or fire or ambulance personnel. Because everyone would obey the laws, would be very attentive to hazards and risks, and would be taking perfect care of their own health, their own homes, their own autos. We wouldn't have global warming or wars, we wouldn't need prisons and all that money could go to help the less fortunate.

People cannot moderate themselves. We all bring with us our own thoughts and opinions. And here, in Aspieland, we might do a lot of misinterpretation. I do that all the time. No one has defined all the words, as to what it means, in the rules of this site (or any site). They THINK it's clear to everyone. It's not.

YOU think that moderators should be targets of criticism. It depends on what they do. And I have the option of NOT staying on a forum, message board, or site that has moderators that are out of control. It's tough.

One doesn't want to leave their friends, or leave the place they are used to, but sometimes that has to be done. I've seen great sites and very poorly run sites. Poorly run sites end up being a home to trolls. Because nobody cares what goes on. Nobody is in control. There HAS to be some sort of control in effect because people DO NOT MODERATE THEMSELVES.

I do not understand how a mailbox online can be "tampered with". There are very few legal reasons that messages can be read if they are not addressed to the person to whom they were sent (or by who sent them).
http://www.cybercrime.gov/ECPA2701_2712.htm

The people that troll and attack should be ignored by the general membership AND dealt with by the moderators or staff of a site. It is unacceptable behavior. The same way that people who start throwing punches should be backed away from, to allow authorities to remove that person. Not fighting with them, or encouraging them, or doing much else but getting out of the way. Reasoning rarely works.

Open discussions on what should and shouldn't be allowed, as well as clarification of the existing rules would be a good thing. So we can know, ask questions, make comments. We can help point other members to that discussion to learn and contribute.

What exactly is meant by "mail box tampered with"? How do you know? What were the observed things?

In real life, I didn't even know I had mail stolen, somewhere along the line, until I got a letter from the Secret Service or something, asking if so and so had permission to have my mail in their residence. Huh? Um, no, they don't. As a result of that real life mail theft, I forgot about auto insurance payment, because I didn't GET the bill, and my insurance was canceled.

The insurance company didn't believe me when I said I never got the bill. They said I either got the bill, or it would have been returned to them. I was able to take the letter from the Secret Service to the auto insurance office to PROVE I had not gotten that bill.

As far as online stuff, there are enough glitches and server burps to wipe out a lot of things. Like that weird evening thing with the MySQL server problem here every night. If you tried to send something in, and the server was down, you lose your post. Oops.

I've had many computer crashes and freezes in the past. Lost my post or mail. And I've lost two hard drives, so I lose everything. I've been on websites that update and switch message board styles, and they lose all the old posts. THOUSANDS of old posts just disappear. They promise it won't happen and it does. They promised a second time that it wouldn't happen, and it happened again.

So, we should know if the folks are reading our PMs and why. I am definitely behind protecting children from predators. Protecting ANYONE from predators. But I am against reading PMs for jollies. It's nobodies business what occurs via PM if it is not illegal, immoral, or unethical.



You have not been her very long up to a few months ago we had only a few moderators and everything was fine. Then ppl complained they wanted be made mods and then their friends complained because they wanted to be made mods too. It was a status symbol.


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bizarre
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26 May 2007, 2:41 pm

Sopho wrote:
I thought moderators couldn't read PMs?


No they are not supposed to.


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calandale
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26 May 2007, 3:52 pm

bizarre wrote:
Sopho wrote:
I thought moderators couldn't read PMs?


No they are not supposed to.


Nor can we.



shadexiii
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26 May 2007, 3:52 pm

bizarre wrote:
Well basically what i wanted to state was just because a person is a Mod, does not make them above reproach.


I think everyone here, especially the mods, are aware of this. Even then, it isn't all that easy for someone to be completely without flaw when they're being constantly attacked, at times over things they haven't even done.

bizarre wrote:
Sopho wrote:
I thought moderators couldn't read PMs?


No they are not supposed to.


As far as I'm aware, they can't. It isn't an issue of should they or shouldn't they. Like I've said previously, as far as I know only one person on this board can read anyone's PMs at will, but he doesn't even seem to read PMs addressed to him, so I don' think that it is currently an issue.

Also, I tried sending you a PM. In one of the threads on how the bug could occur, it suggested that somehow the count got looped around due to a message getting deleted, and I read that receiving a message could fix it. I tried doing that, let me know if it worked or not.



calandale
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26 May 2007, 4:08 pm

bizarre wrote:
I think it was Alex intention that the members moderator themselves the only reason he made extras mods was because of Atomika-like attacks. The Mods were picked at
random to delete spam and ban spammers.


True, along with stopping flame wars by deleting posts. We brought up
other circumstances as well, such as deleting obscene or inflammatory posts,
and he seemed to agree that this too was wise.

Quote:
If Mods start doing things like banning
members and deleting or editing their posts because they are in a bad mood or they
don't like the member, i feel members have the right to call them on that.


Damned straight. And the one time that there was a serious breach,
we were called to task for it.

Quote:
If a
particular mod has such a thin-skin that they cannot handle any criticism at all they
probably should not be a Mod. Being a target for criticism is part of being a Mod. It
goes with the territory.


I agree, for the most part. There should be some level of decorum
to the discourse, however. Out and out personal attacks on the mods
are such a fuzzy area, I just don't know what to do about them. Remember
that we are people too, and a couple of us actually have feelings. :P

Quote:
I had a problem with one of the Mods and i tried to contact Alex
about it via PM and my mailbox was tampered with. I got upset about it. Nothing was
being done about it was very frustrating sorry for loosing my temper.


I understand. But, if my memory serves me correctly, things had gotten pretty
ugly before that complaint. I'm disturbed that nothing's been said which
makes any sense as to how this could have happened. But, without access to
the debugging software, there is no way that we can find out. I suspect Alex has
been unable to as well, given that Bazza suffered the same fate. I see three possibitlies
as to who did this (ignoring any possibility of circumstance, which seems absurd), and
am not really willing to reveal my suspicions here. They are available where Alex has
access to them.


Quote:
I think if everyone just ignored the spammers they would stop coming back and their
would be no need for the extras Moderators. It is no fun for spammers if no one
responds to their attacks. Instead of getting 50 replies to their messages!


Unfortunately, this isn't likely. We have people screaming that the world is ending
when one of these happens. You may have missed the disturbing pictures which were
placed on the last attacks, as well. I think that we'd want someone to remove them
ASAP anyhow. Of course, if the spammer hadn't been upset by being banned, none
of this would have happened.

Quote:
Well basically what i wanted to state was just because a person is a Mod, does not make them above reproach.


'tis true. But remember again, it doesn't make them less human.

I think that having a discussion on this level is helpful.
If we've erred, I have no doubt that Alex will reprimand
or remove us. But, it does help both parties understand that
there is no inherent dislike underlying what is going on.



calandale
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26 May 2007, 4:12 pm

shadexiii wrote:
...as far as I know only one person on this board can read anyone's PMs at will, but he doesn't even seem to read PMs addressed to him, so I don' think that it is currently an issue.


:P

shadexiii wrote:
Also, I tried sending you a PM. In one of the threads on how the bug could occur, it suggested that somehow the count got looped around due to a message getting deleted, and I read that receiving a message could fix it. I tried doing that, let me know if it worked or not.


Still, it seems clear that someone caused this bug to manifest where it did.
I wonder if there's a way of tracking that.



shadexiii
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26 May 2007, 4:23 pm

calandale wrote:
Still, it seems clear that someone caused this bug to manifest where it did.
I wonder if there's a way of tracking that.


There might be a log of it? The problem is, if the bug was triggered intentionally by someone deleting a PM after sending it when the inbox was previously empty, would that delete the record of the message? Or would it just delete it from the recipient's inbox? I'm hoping it is the latter, because then all Alex would have to do would be check to see if the same person (or dummy accounts / puppets if the senders had low post counts) sent and then subsequently deleted messages to both bizarre and Bazza.

Well, once he comes back and checks in on the site.

OK...I said I had sent bizarre a PM, now I can't find any record of it. This may simply be because I forgot to hit the send button then clicked on a link (wouldn't be the first time...) or something else is going on. Not sure which yet. Holding off on sending another until bizarre comments on it. (Don't want to make it seem like I'm intentionally flooding her inbox. >_< )



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26 May 2007, 6:14 pm

bizarre wrote:
If Mods start doing things like banning
members and deleting or editing their posts because they are in a bad mood or they
don't like the member, i feel members have the right to call them on that.

I am yet to do that.

bizarre wrote:
If a particular mod has such a thin-skin that they cannot handle any criticism at all they probably should not be a Mod. Being a target for criticism is part of being a Mod. It
goes with the territory. I had a problem with one of the Mods and i tried to contact Alex
about it via PM and my mailbox was tampered with. I got upset about it. Nothing was
being done about it was very frustrating sorry for loosing my temper.


Valid criticism is the case in point. But I accept your apology. Alex is incommunicado. Another member (NOT a mod) suggested that there was a glitch that goes with PhpBBSes, and until I hear more substantial evidence to another fact, that is the explanation I will accept.

bizarre wrote:
I do know what it's like being a Mod as i am the only moderator of a group of almost 400 members. It is not a AS group it has all kinds of ppl in it NT's, AS, people from all
over the world. I have never had a problem so far. It's pretty nice, everyone gets
along. Nothing has really even come up.


How many BBSes have you been a member of, bizarre? I have been a full-on member of 3 BBSes since 2001, and have quit or faded away from them for similar reasons: I either got bored, or it was a cesspool. The BBS you moderate must be a rare fish indeed. This is my first moderating job, but do not tell me I do not have experience of what BBS life is like.

bizarre wrote:
I think if everyone just ignored the spammers they would stop coming back and their would be no need for the extras Moderators. It is no fun for spammers if no one
responds to their attacks. Instead of getting 50 replies to their messages!


Of course, and I agree. But too many people do not share your views, and lash out in anger.



bizarre wrote:
Well basically what i wanted to state was just because a person is a Mod, does not make them above reproach.

(edited for spelling)


No, but it does not mean accusations made in anger are valid, especially when they turn out to have another cause entirely. Ira furor brevis est, but it can cause so much damage.

Oh, and you didn't have 'i' with a capital letter. :twisted: Grammar nazi in me....


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