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funeralxempire
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28 May 2021, 12:37 am

ironpony wrote:
What if also, the police taking the 911 calls were trained to assess whether the call is an overreacton or not, and sends out a social worker instead of officers instead? Could people taking the calls be trained to look for overreactions and do that?


Don't 911 calls go to a central dispatcher who then decides how to respond? Like, you don't expect to get cops if you're calling about your house burning down, you expect a fire truck to be the primary response.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


ironpony
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28 May 2021, 12:41 am

Oh okay, but if this is the case and it's the dispatchers's job to decide, then why are they sending cops into situations, where people think it's uncalled for, hence reform?

Is it the people calling that are overreaction or is it the dispatchers fault therefore, if the decision on who to send lies with them? Maybe instead of reform the police officers that are being sent, reform the dispatchers?



IsabellaLinton
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28 May 2021, 12:52 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, but if this is the case and it's the dispatchers's job to decide, then why are they sending cops into situations, where people think it's uncalled for, hence reform?

Is it the people calling that are overreaction or is it the dispatchers fault therefore, if the decision on who to send lies with them? Maybe instead of reform the police officers that are being sent, reform the dispatchers?


Dispatch has a difficult job. If they underreact and don't send police, or they send a social worker who gets killed, they'll have to answer for it. There will be a public outcry that citizens sought help, but the dispatcher "did nothing", "didn't take them seriously", or "caused an unarmed social worker to be shot" (example). It's a balancing act. The onus is on public awareness about mental health like what FXE said. Seeing a drunk person on the street isn't cause for alarm. Seeing Isabella melt down because of sensory overload isn't cause for alarm either. But bystanders think they are doing the right thing by calling cops. I'll admit I'm privileged. I can melt down within reason because I'm a white woman in a place where guns aren't legal. But can a POC male melt down in East LA? There's a lot of prejudice and a lot of biases in play when the general public makes these split-second judgement calls. That's where a lot of reform and public education should help, as well as training cops in mental health support.


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funeralxempire
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28 May 2021, 1:06 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, but if this is the case and it's the dispatchers's job to decide, then why are they sending cops into situations, where people think it's uncalled for, hence reform?

Is it the people calling that are overreaction or is it the dispatchers fault therefore, if the decision on who to send lies with them? Maybe instead of reform the police officers that are being sent, reform the dispatchers?


Basically, everything Isabella said, but ultimately if violence is needlessly used the personal responsibility comes down on the person who used it and the institutional responsibility comes down on those who trained them and manage them.

The dispatchers have a hard job, improving their training or at least bringing it to a consistent standard would be good as well. That said, if cops arrive and realize they're not the best person for the job they should be able to identify that and not escalate things. Part of the problem is the influence of Dave Grossman who's books and seminars indoctrinate police that they need to be killers and that they're constantly at potential risk of being killed. Once that doctrine because the norm it makes it very hard for even good people to resist that mindset. They're public servants, not an occupying force but that mindset trains them to compartmentalize the feelings that keep one's inhibitions against harming others in check.

I know, I read his books while I was in a part of my life where I sometimes felt obliged to use force. I regret it, they were how-to manuals on how to hurt people and not feel bad about it afterwards; in hindsight getting away with it doesn't mean it didn't harm me.


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There's no such thing as a free market.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


IsabellaLinton
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28 May 2021, 1:20 am

funeralxempire wrote:

Basically, everything Isabella said, but ultimately if violence is needlessly used the personal responsibility comes down on the person who used it and the institutional responsibility comes down on those who trained them and manage them.



100%
When I saw that situation with the cops swarming a man, I knew I had to go back and witness. It took me about 3 minutes to turn around but I went back and parked right in front of the scene. I know the cops saw me watching them, but I didn't care. I pulled out my phone to take photos. The man didn't resist. He wasn't cuffed. He wasn't getting first aid. But there were easily ten cops kneeling on / around him. I felt I might see history repeat itself and I was prepared to jump out my car if the man appeared distressed, or if they became needlessly violent in this arrest. I have all the photos and if there's an inquest, I have no problem explaining what I saw. The bottom line is that all rights come with responsibilities. If cops have the right to serve and protect or to be armed, they have the responsibility to treat people appropriately, and with as much dignity as each situation can provide.


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ironpony
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28 May 2021, 9:05 am

Oh okay then, good points. So how come they don't just call it "Reform the police" and why use the word defund then, since that can cause a lot of confusion in comparison?



kraftiekortie
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28 May 2021, 12:30 pm

I would certainly agree.

I believe "defund" is used to placate those who feel the police are a fascistic component in our society.



ironpony
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29 May 2021, 12:02 am

Oh okay. Well if reforming is a good thing, then how come all these cops feel it's bad and are calling in with the blue flue as a result?