who do you want to meet in heaven?

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You are incorrect. Much of the barbarity in the Christian biblical canon is actually copied verbatim from the Jewish biblical canon. Both Judaism and Christianity share much of the same barbaric text. The "Hebrew Bible" is a term that refers to the common portions of the Jewish and Christian biblical canons -- it is mostly the Old Testament.

In Judaism, Moses is revered as the greatest prophet and teacher. However, the Jewish writings about this Moses man say that he ordered his men to kill the male babies of his enemies, and rape their daughters. The Jewish religion is NO less sick and mentally disturbed than Christianity.

OK, so you are effectively saying that you are NOT a Christian. Saying that god is loving and graceful is contradicting the Christian bible.

So you seem to be saying that the Christian bible is wrong. I applaud you for this. Good on you for having your own beliefs!

Not many people have the strength of mind that is necessary to say, "I will form MY OWN opinions about a god, and I will NOT automatically believe what any religion tells me."

Last edited by emp on 18 Jun 2006, 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

First of all what is heaven?

How abstract. As an aspie, I dislike abstract questions. As such, I will out-stract you. What is reality, and the universe it contains?

A farce and a lie.

emp wrote:
OK, so you are effectively saying that you are NOT a Christian.


No, I am effectively saying that I hope to see you in heaven & that God loves you, just the way you are right now!
Ask Him, see what He says, & don't listen to the first smart a++ remark that you, emp, will not be able to stop from forming in your brain. Just listen, see what happens....think of it as a logical, scientific experiment to find out if you are capable of truly listening without fear or judgement or planning your next witty remark. And no, I don't want to read the self important response you will no doubt write. This could be just between you and your Maker.


emp wrote:
Saying that god is loving and graceful is contradicting the Christian bible.

I guess that would be true if I were stupid enough to believe all expositional preaching or deconstructionist theories, which you seem to regularly use through out these threads. Give me one of your books of logic and I can flip through the pages and take out a sentence or two, and make it mean whatever I choose to those who are not educated in that area & then quote the book and page number to substanciate my truth. When we (you or me) do that, we are no better than televangelist or pimps that sell what they don't use or practice.

emp wrote:
I applaud you for this. Good on you for having your own beliefs! Not many people have the strength of mind that is necessary to say, "I will form MY OWN opinions about a god, and I will NOT automatically believe what any religion tells me."

Thank you for the compliment! You too have been blessed by God with many gifts such as intelligence & grace (should you choose to accept it.)

In Christ,
MMM

If you believe that, then you disagree with Christianity. Because the Christian bible says that god hates me.

It also says that Jesus says that I am unworthy of him (Mat 10:37).

(Not me specifically, obviously. It says that god and jesus hate people who are like me.)

Last edited by emp on 18 Jun 2006, 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

all people:
Instead of going to tell how abstract this topic is...
I'll give a note about the topic in general how it could be rephrased: "who would you like to meet that have died or is currently living?". I'm glad I've found an answer.

subatai_baadur:
"What is reality, and the universe it contains?"

Reality depends on...
...sorry...the question depends on what you think of the word reality. It also depends on my view of reality.

Do you wish me to answer according to my view of the word "reality" or your view?
Or should we try to find a common view of the question first, before I answer?

The reality is that questions indeed need other questions, even to be understood.

Oh and what God did to the Egyptions was fair and equitable.

NOT.

There are squillions of other examples, the God of the Old Testament was extremely nasty.

I particularily didn't like "the sins of the fathers are visited on the children", though I can't argue with it. You get most of your problems from your parents either genetically or environmentally. And then you pass them all onto your children.

emp wrote:

If you believe that, then you disagree with Christianity. Because the Christian bible says that god hates me.

It also says that Jesus says that I am unworthy of him (Mat 10:37).

(Not me specifically, obviously. It says that god and jesus hate people who are like me.)[/quote]


emp, I do believe that because THAT IS WHAT Christianity teaches. God Loves You Emp, just the way you are! That is what Christ teaches - but of course you have to read book IN IT"S ENTIRETY first & then come to your own conclusions.

Any logical person would know you can't pick a sentence out of a book and understand the whole book.

If brainwashing pisses you off so much, and you hate people who don't think for themselves, why do you feed them with your easy one sentence crap? I think you must really like those people & enjoy brainwashing so you can feel in control.
For someone so logical, how can you take one sentence out of an entire library and use that one sentence to be fact?
STOP THE DECONSTRUCTIONIST THEY ARE SO LAZY!! !! !! !! !

Nietchze said, "God is dead", oh - he must mean God is literally dead like humans who have died. Why read anymore? I agree with this one statement so why go on & figure out what he meant? Who cares what he meant, I only care what I think. Philosophy, why study it when it is all about what someone else thinks? All I care about is what I think! MEMEMEMEMEMMEME.
PLEASE STOP THE INSANITY!!

If logic is your god, use it, and study the Bible before you spout out one sentence wonders that even you don't believe.

Here is an assignment, read the entire book of either Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. Then read some commentaries from people you don't know or agree with & then from people you do agree with. Then go back and read the Gospel you picked and read it again. There are some real questions there, those are ones I'd like to debate with you.

Be happy today. I like you so much when you are funny.

Love & Grace,
MMM

Okay, I'm not trying to enter the frey here, but I just wanted to say that I find it really ironic for you to say that when you yourself are only paying attention to specific parts of the bible and ignoring the rampant immoral acts that it says god has gotten away with. (And yes, they ARE in the new testament, too.) Not saying that Emp's not ignoring some stuff too, though--hell everyone does it to some extent. I mean, I won't say I don't think some things in the bible are irrelevent, while others would disagree and say that they're the most important parts. The way I see it, the bible's so self-contradictory that pretty much anyone can form their own understanding of it to fit whatever opinion or agenda they have, by ignoring some parts and paying close attention to others. (God hates shrimp!)




In the less literal sense, it's different for every individual. For me it's a combination of homemade chocolate fudge brownies (with milk, of course), playing a totally kickass new game that surpasses your tall expectations (I'd say a film instead, but there's a lot of films I do enjoy while there are so few games I like these days anymore), actual comfort for once (i.e. not being itchy, achey, not too hot or cold or anything--which for me is NEVER the case), while being with someone I love being around (and while having the knowledge that I'll be able to be around them later as well, that this isn't just some cheap one time thing)...that's all I can think of right now.

Veresae wrote:
Okay, I'm not trying to enter the frey here, but I just wanted to say that I find it really ironic for you to say that when you yourself are only paying attention to specific parts of the bible and ignoring the rampant immoral acts that it says god has gotten away with.

Veresae, what makes you think I am only paying attention to specific parts of the bible and ignoring the rampant immoral acts that it says god has gotten away with? What makes you think that I don't know about Noah possibly being incestuously raped by one of his sons? However, God had nothing to do with that, that was a really sick & drunk son. Grossssss! What makes you think I don't know about the angles at Sodom & Gommorah & that the dad offered his daughter to the men instead of the angels? Wait, can we blame that on God?????? Not logically, unless, if it looks like a chicken, then it must be a witch..... Oh, I know, I ignored the part about God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son. Now, God did do that!! Go read it, God is really mean and evil there. Oh wait, what about the red sea crushing all those poor egyptians? Must be God's fault, just because He gave them warning after warning after warning....... of course it couldn't be the consequences of their own actions......no, it must be God's fault or even better, their parent's fault because when they were young they didn't get a convertable in red, yes yes that must be it.
Yes, I've read all the good the bad the ugly & I come to the conclusion every time that God is Love. Life is not pretty, we are given free will & we mess up & sometimes we even blame it on God or truely believe that what we are doing is for God - when it is really for ourselves or evil. That's what is so awesome about the Word of God. It's not pretty, nice, or false. You want the truth, go there and you will find it.
I guess the point I'm trying to making is, go STUDY it. Don't be brainwashed by one sentence, one story, one chapter, etc. Don't just read one time by yourself. If you really want the truth - go find it. And truth is rarely found in seclusion. You need others to debate with, question, love, hate, etc. to find truth - Not just your truth. You need to go over it again & again, compare it with atheist, agnostics, methodist, baptist, catholic, muslims, hindu, satanist, etc.......... If you want to not believe, or believe, go dig in for a decade to begin with, learn what the Christian's believe, then question it, etc....... But please don't assume I've not already done what I'm asking you to do. I'm not asking anyone on here to believe what I believe - I don't think that is possible. But it would be nice for people to accept my beliefs as mine & accept me for who I am.


Veresae wrote:
I'm not saying Emp's not ignoring some stuff too, though--hell everyone does it to some extent.

I agree with you on we all ignore some stuff to some extent - in my case - especially the things I don't understand or am not ready to tackly.

Verseae wrote:
I mean, I won't say I don't think some things in the bible are irrelevent, while others would disagree and say that they're the most important parts. The way I see it, the bible's so self-contradictory that pretty much anyone can form their own understanding of it to fit whatever opinion or agenda they have, by ignoring some parts and paying close attention to others. (God hates shrimp!)

I agree with all of the above too, except the God hates shrimp thing which I know you are just quoting. Just for the record - God made shrimp & does not hate them. For whatever reason, He is God, He didn't want the Jews to eat it, in my lowly opinion the law is for obedience with a healthy blessing following, esp. back then. I love shrimp, I have one in my aquarium & he is soo cute, but really disgusting as he helps clean the tank. Crabs too, really cute, esp. when they fall off the top of the reef & land upside down & then try to help each other turn over, but they too eat poop & other nasty fishy stuff. Not my top choice either when eating out. But instead of judging others, see what it means for you.

Damnit, the arguement started without me. I'll join in anyway. It's quoting time!
"Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth the heads of the little ones upon the stones"
-Bible
"Religion easily—has the best BS story of all time. Think about it. Religion has convinced people that there's an invisible man...living in the sky. Who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn't want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer, and burn, and scream, until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you. He loves you and he needs money."
-Carlin
"One's religion is whatever he is most interested in"
-J.M Barrie
And now for some more original sentiment. Religion as a whole is false. It exists everywhere as a basic means to justify your sh***y existance. There are no naturally atheist cultures on the face of the earth, nor will there ever be. This is because it is very hard to accept that your miserable life is petty, worthless, and will be forgotten in a few years. So people like to come up with these stories of some life beyond your death. Sometimes it's on the back of some turtle. Sometimes it's based on the words of some carpenter that lived 2 millenia ago. But regardless of what it is based on, it is all either false, or made of thousands upon millions of different variables which makes the chances of you being correct practically zero. What colour are gods eyes? Man or woman? How many arms/legs/heads/belly buttons? How tall is it? Does it have a spouse, and if so, is it homosexual? There are too many questions on which you could be wrong on, and thus get sent packing to the same place that all of the atheists are going. Now for the angry christian god theory. God is always pissed. Son dead, wife dead, garden palace empty. Betrayed constantly by corrupt officials and mistrusted for years by people like me. I'd be pissed too if all of that had happened to me. I don't think that he has much goodness left for those other than the most virtuous. I don't think he was that happy to begin with, seeing as he sends people to hell and kicks angels out constantly. Right now, he is sending half of America to hell. Everyone who has ever gotten a divorce can come with me to the river Styx. So stop trying this whole religion bull****, because it has no chance. Don't waste your time.

Emp, as I said, I will not argue with you, until you have read the whole bible, and had some lessons from it. The New Testament is mostly about grace and God's love.
I feel insulted by your assumption about my strength. I am much stronger than you know. As it is I losely affiliate with christianity, However, there are may christians, who if they knew my beliefs, would probably completely dismiss them. In my view everyone gets heaven. (I have alot about Satan and this, too. I believe that Satan's seperation from God is torturing him, even now.)

The entire bible? Why don't you just ask him to read an annotated version of how to make a nuclear bomb. It's far shorter, and more useful too.

My belief is that you cannot argue with someone unless you know their side. He obivously doesnot, and I wouldn't want him to end up like Stephen J. Gould, who any 9th grader in a doctrine class can effectively argue against...