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subatai_baadur
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27 Aug 2006, 4:17 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Ok, so, you are finding yourself to be less idealistic than you wanted and see a loss in this idealism, as well, you probably are feeling a bit of anger or bitterness inside yourself that is eating away at you to some extent. Putting a low value on human life is rather vague, since there is a rather large spectrum of important things. If life the most valuable of all things? No, but it is also not the least valuable either, the same is true with happiness, people are willing to sacrifice both for many other things, however, idealists are likely to see happiness and life as high values which are not to be compromised, and the rejection of that idealism is probably leading to some of the emptiness. The whole killing somebody if given the opportunity thing is probably a bit of anger and contempt held towards the world, because only anger would motivate somebody to kill so meaninglessly. The question is not what is unimportant to you, but rather what do you see as important? What ideals/beliefs do you hold? There is nothing that humans are supposed to hold except for themselves as we have given birth the horrors beyond imagining and to saints, the question is whether what you hold will be good for you.

I value knowledge and intelligence above all else. In fact, it's probably 2 or 3 times as valuable as anything else. Everything else is just a jumbled mess below it as far as what I see as important. Love is somewhere in there at second, but from there it's all just minor things.


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Orvaskesi
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27 Aug 2006, 4:23 pm

The fact that you can imagine yourself being a psychopathic murderer doesn't mean that you risk becoming one any time soon. It's easy to let scenarios run wild in our heads - but in real life, there are other barriers than just the wish not to land in jail standing between us and the act. I wonder if the picture you have of yourself as a totally unethical person who places a low value on human life is really accurate - and whether you are not downplaying yourself a little bit.


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subatai_baadur
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27 Aug 2006, 6:12 pm

Orvaskesi wrote:
The fact that you can imagine yourself being a psychopathic murderer doesn't mean that you risk becoming one any time soon. It's easy to let scenarios run wild in our heads - but in real life, there are other barriers than just the wish not to land in jail standing between us and the act. I wonder if the picture you have of yourself as a totally unethical person who places a low value on human life is really accurate - and whether you are not downplaying yourself a little bit.

Didn't get the meaning of that last sentence.


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Orvaskesi
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27 Aug 2006, 7:41 pm

I meant that I was wondering whether you're not being overly self-critical.


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Enigmatic_Oddity
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27 Aug 2006, 7:43 pm

subatai_baadur wrote:
Didn't get the meaning of that last sentence.


He means he thinks you think you're worse than you really are.



subatai_baadur
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28 Aug 2006, 2:54 pm

Ok. I seem to be out of my mini-depression(Cyclothymia sends me through them every once in a while; I'll probably end up killing myself during one of them), but the whole random-killing thing is not leaving. In fact, it has been going on for some time. Should I be at all concerned?


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Orvaskesi
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28 Aug 2006, 4:40 pm

We're talking about random-killing thing in your mind, right? No bodies being stacked around the Subatai Baadur home, right?

If you're concerned, perhaps talk about it to a psych or something. I can't see in your head. But the very fact that you post this seems to indicate that you do not actually want to go on a killing spree, and that the idea is unattractive to you on at least some level. The fact that you are here posting and worrying about your ethics seems to indicate, to me, that you perhaps do have ethics and a conscience.


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subatai_baadur
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28 Aug 2006, 6:34 pm

Orvaskesi wrote:
We're talking about random-killing thing in your mind, right? No bodies being stacked around the Subatai Baadur home, right?

If you're concerned, perhaps talk about it to a psych or something. I can't see in your head. But the very fact that you post this seems to indicate that you do not actually want to go on a killing spree, and that the idea is unattractive to you on at least some level. The fact that you are here posting and worrying about your ethics seems to indicate, to me, that you perhaps do have ethics and a conscience.

I don't know, sometimes I have this ethical conscious that tells me why I shouldn't be killing people, and then the more romantic, movie type personality conjures up this great image of the lone warrior going about the country without any regard for laws, being a renegade. It's a fairly stupid image and is illogical on numerous levels, but for some reason it hasn't gone away.


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28 Aug 2006, 7:39 pm

So, you do have a conscience, and a set of ethics - perhaps it's not talking to you all the time, but nonetheless it's there. At the same time you have romantic ideas about outsiders and renegades. But a renegade doesn't necessarily have to be an unethical psychopath, does it? An outlaw or a renegade, to me, would proudly follow the laws that he imposes upon himself rather than those of society - and mind you, I am not recommending in the slightest that you do so - but that does not necessarily entail mindless killing sprees.

It seems to me that psychopaths and serial killers are really quite often pathetic, sad people. The Son of Sam had his dog telling him to kill people. I don't even want to go into Ed Gein. Ted Bundy was genuinely intelligent (as well as a very evil human being who deserved what he got in the end) - but he's a bit of an exception, as far as I can see. Nothing romantic about them, to me. Just people who spend their lives creating enormous bitterness and pain and grief. Can't see why anyone would want to do that.

I think Emettman earlier in the thread was on to something: But I suspect you've found that morality and ethics isn't built on ground as solid as you used to think.. In the end, if you start thinking too much about your personal ethics, conscience, and your personal limits - it's all too easy to imagine that there is none. Because in the end, they are build on metaphysical, philosophical primes: "Do not unto others..." etc. They aren't based on anything but themselves.

On the other hand, they are very strong principles. How do you want to be thought about and remembered by other people? In my personal belief, that's all that remains of us after we die. And nothing else really matters. I personally would like not to be remembered with anger and hatred and grief.

You say you value knowledge and intelligence above anything else. Even that can be turned into an ethically very sound goal, and a purpose in life. One which would demand a lot of freedom, too - only a free mind can really gather knowledge. But it would not fit well with killing sprees.


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subatai_baadur
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28 Aug 2006, 8:30 pm

Orvaskesi wrote:
So, you do have a conscience, and a set of ethics - perhaps it's not talking to you all the time, but nonetheless it's there. At the same time you have romantic ideas about outsiders and renegades. But a renegade doesn't necessarily have to be an unethical psychopath, does it? An outlaw or a renegade, to me, would proudly follow the laws that he imposes upon himself rather than those of society - and mind you, I am not recommending in the slightest that you do so - but that does not necessarily entail mindless killing sprees.

It seems to me that psychopaths and serial killers are really quite often pathetic, sad people. The Son of Sam had his dog telling him to kill people. I don't even want to go into Ed Gein. Ted Bundy was genuinely intelligent (as well as a very evil human being who deserved what he got in the end) - but he's a bit of an exception, as far as I can see. Nothing romantic about them, to me. Just people who spend their lives creating enormous bitterness and pain and grief. Can't see why anyone would want to do that.

I think Emettman earlier in the thread was on to something: But I suspect you've found that morality and ethics isn't built on ground as solid as you used to think.. In the end, if you start thinking too much about your personal ethics, conscience, and your personal limits - it's all too easy to imagine that there is none. Because in the end, they are build on metaphysical, philosophical primes: "Do not unto others..." etc. They aren't based on anything but themselves.

On the other hand, they are very strong principles. How do you want to be thought about and remembered by other people? In my personal belief, that's all that remains of us after we die. And nothing else really matters. I personally would like not to be remembered with anger and hatred and grief.

You say you value knowledge and intelligence above anything else. Even that can be turned into an ethically very sound goal, and a purpose in life. One which would demand a lot of freedom, too - only a free mind can really gather knowledge. But it would not fit well with killing sprees.

What about the Unabomber? I just question whether morality and ethics should exist at all, as a concept. Why shouldn't I kill at random? My mind could ramble endlessly about the concept that all are guilty, and then I get into free will, and my mind scatters. I just start to understand why the mass murderers did what they did, and start to wonder what has kept me from doing the same. I wonder if there is some sort of wall that I am nearing as I advance in age.


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Awesomelyglorious
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28 Aug 2006, 10:06 pm

subatai_baadur wrote:
I value knowledge and intelligence above all else. In fact, it's probably 2 or 3 times as valuable as anything else. Everything else is just a jumbled mess below it as far as what I see as important. Love is somewhere in there at second, but from there it's all just minor things.
So, you do have a cause. I don't see the problem then, I would imagine that many scholars think as you do and pursue knowledge. Just so long as you never cross society at large you can probably get through life, and if you value knowledge so much you could probably become some professor somewhere to advance the cause of knowledge. Certainly ethics is uncertain, however, the question is not why not act, the question is always why act? Morality and ethics exist for common grounds and to form effective society, at the basis of law and and action is a moral cause somewhere in there whether it is individualism, compassion, authoritarianism, etc. The question is what moral preferences should we believe in to further the cause of humanity. Should we go for natural negative rights, positive rights, strict moral absolutism, complete subjectivism, etc.