Can I say this?

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Who gets to hang Bush for his war crimes? Oh we can't because 'they are the ones not to f**k around with.' This is lucky for Bush, he can hide behind is faithful pawns that fight for patriotism, right or wrong, just patriotism.

Isnt patriotism belief much the same as an extreme muslims belief? Dangerous. Hard to kill an American if he isn't labeled one.

What war crimes?

Look into it, you need to find this out on your own

I don't see exactly where you believe the problem is. The logic is fairly straightforward. First, Saddam was a player in a big game with high stakes. Your life is the highest stake in the particular game we're looking at. If you rule a country as a dictator, you run the risk of being deposed, and those you've oppressed exacting revenge. Moreover, if you threaten the security of the USA, you've obviously got to expect trouble. When the good ol' US have the decency to give you the opportunity to prove you're not a threat, then you do all you can to hinder that process, you're really asking for it.

Are you referring to Guantanamo? Yes, he made mistakes there. Should have never sent the "British" ones back. Could of dropped 'em off mid-Atlantic somewhere.

Nope, the whole war itself was illegal. Like I said, look into it.

And you fail to see the logic of allowing a criminal to be free for 13 years after he killed 100,000 people. Look, if it was a problem then, it should have been dealt with then, not tomorrow, not 2 weeks from now, THEN. We don't find a murderer on the street 10 years after they've killed someone, we at least start looking almost instantaneously. Saddam went through 1 war and many years of nothing before the U.S. all of a sudden thought 'whoa, someone blew our buildings up, Saddam must die for deaths of Kurds during 1988.' < -- ya, flawless logic right there.

What happens if 9/11 never happened? We wouldnt have tried Saddam, thats what! Funny, eh? It took an unrelated event (although you may think its directly related with all the evidence (i.e. none) connecting him to the 9/11 attack) to try Saddam for attacks he did roughly 15 years ago against the kurds. World Trade Towers collapsing versus the deaths of thousands of Kurds in 1988 - unrelated. Somehow, some reason, we are now trying Saddam for that - I guess since we got him, now, we might as well start trying him for things even though, in 1988-2001, we didnt give a s**t

I agree, Bush is corrupt too. The ONLY reason he isn't being tried for war crimes is because a) he's the million-aire president of the world's most powerful nation, and b) he has had to hide behind alot more red tape to protect himself.
HOWEVER, irreguardless of that fact, it doesn't change the fact that Saddam was also a brutal cut-throat dictator, who is more openly guilty of war crimes. He does deserve to have justice inacted upon him, and I won't shed a tear for some stupid poor man's Hitler. Look for a moment at what Saddam did TO HIS OWN PEOPLE. I mean, I'm sure many Iraqis aren't too happy about an American occupation or what they might see as one, but most are very happy to have Saddam removed.
Now, I still don't think initially this was a good reason for us to go to war with Iraq, as we can't play world police, and besides, we have our own problems to deal with. I was largely against this war because it's killing our economy, and the only one's really profitting from it are rich politicians and fanatical religious leaders. But, the fact remains, do I think a brutal, destructive, serial killing dictator like Saddam deserves to have justice inacted upon him, reguardless of rather I feel like the people carrying it out are good people themselves or not? I'd have to vote, yes, Saddam deserved death. Hell he should have been tortured to death. The only reason I can possibly see for letting Saddam live is that life in prison is worse than a death sentence.

Yes, Saddam DID cause a lot of bad things and he should be condemned but I think we have to view it more indepthly STILL. Kurds were trying to assassinate him - if "kurds" were doing that to an American president, he probably would have done a similar thing (and America has killed many, many people).

The thing is, if you want to have Saddam and try him and set a precedent, then we've MANY many many many many many more people to go after. If we want that precedent, then by all means, start going after every other single bad person on this planet and don't stop. If you stop then you're telling me that you're just choosing which criminals are bad and that will most likely be out of corrupted reasoning

But it did happen. You can't view each of these things in isolation; it's all interconnected to various degrees. Your country and the western democratic world relies on oil from countries in the vicinity of Iraq. As long as they continue to do so, you'll have an interest in what happens politically over there. The government you democratically elected decided that it was in the best interests of your country to invade Iraq, though they gave the cause some window dressing in order to make it more palatable to the electorate. I would assume the exact reasons were not confined to one issue, though the fact that your economy depends on oil from the region was obviously a major part of it. The fact that Saddam has been brought to justice for events that occured many years ago is a fortunate consequence of the action. It's not practical to put every murderous despot on trial; but just because that's not possible, why should you use it as a reason not to bring to justice one when the opportunity arises?

You're stating the only reason Saddam was on trial was because of 'fluke' occurences that happened. Had they not have happened, then Saddam wouldn't be doing anything. And as for stability, Iraq is highly unstable and it can be argued that removing Saddam is actually causing harm in the area, not benefit.

As for oil? Who cares? The Western world, mainly Canada and the U.S., are so greedy themselves they are one of the reasons they DEPEND on the middle East's oil. Its not because the Middle East trades oil with us, its because we are so greedy and dependent on it that we NEED to.

Look at the cars we drive? S.U.V.'s and big massive sport cars. I've heard ton's of yanks b***h about they can drive whatever they want simply because they can. This is why we have interest there, people are ignorant towards themselves and feel the need to blame others. If we all stopped wasting fuels and being inefficient, we wouldnt need to be over there pissing around with someone else's economy. Besides, are you stating that because we depend on another nation we should take up arms and force them to abide but how we live? America is a greedy nation and the citizens of that nation are irresponsible (I generalize the nation as a whole). They want money, they want Hummers, they want more then they will ever need and the only persons fault that is is their own but they blame everyone else. N. America pisses away energy like no other. At my apartment, I have no lights on and the only thing on in my whole apartment is my computer, thats it. We became dependent because we piss away everything, we buy s**t we don't need, christ, its all just pissed away. This is why we're in Iraq, so we can continue to piss away everything. 80 billion to rebuild iraq, wheres our love for Darfur? When you review how the world operates, it comes down to greed, thats it.

If we were in Iraq for oil, we'd simply take over the oil drilling compounds, use the troops to guard them, ship all the oil bck to the USA and we'd already be done there. Please quit yammering about "it's because we're greedy", that's about as narrow minded and shortsighted as a rightwinger saying we need to be in Iraq because all muslims are evil - and a lot stupider, to boot.

Yup, you're there on 'goodie gum drop positive' values and there to spread Christmas cheer, aren't you?

What kind of response to I expect from someone with the actual flag has his avatar?

If I posted one of a humanoid would you want to attack it?

Yeah, pretty much. </sarcasm>



A smarter one than anything you've said, based on your response.



What the f**k are you babbling about now?

Last edited by McJeff on 31 Dec 2006, 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

I liked what one kurdish lady said - keep him alive and carve off a pound of flesh per day. Not doable in our world but if you really get a good look at what the acid showers were, the rape rooms, his enforcement techniques, what he did to the Iranians and Kurds, you'd almost think the ideas for Pinhead in Hellraiser were half inspired like him and people of the like. We do have the Geneva convention to contend with though, even if we're one of like 10 countries in the world forced to answer to its laws, and in that case I'm at least glad to see that they did kill him rather than let him live where in jail the Baathists still would have probably found a way to break him out. The Iraqi people actually wanted him executed just about on the day he was found but we were the ones that told them there would have to be a trial just for the sake of world opinion.

this article from robert fisk in the independent is interesting. he seems to think that the reason saddam was only charged with the deaths of 148 people in dujail in 1984. fisk suggests that his actions in iran were conveniently ignored as they would have revealed the complicity of the west in his actions there. food for thought.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fis ... 112555.ece

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McJeff, I've read your posts in these debates and other 'Americano' debates and you get very pent up with emotion as you type. You tend to blast insults left and right. Why? If you are as confident as your insults 'try to say you are,' then why all the insults? Can you not have a discussion without it falling to this? Stating 'your response is better then mine' is kind of, well, pathetic. Its like saying 'anything' then saying 'I'm right because *I* said it.' Sorry to break it to you, but not everything you say or believe is accurate.

Its a life lesson I learned, myself. Learn to calm down and actually have a discussion; from now on, if I 'wanted' to side track you, I know what buttons to push and its not very complicated to do.