Christians, What is the Formula of your Discovery?

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Kosmonaut
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29 Apr 2007, 4:21 pm

Is that an american thing? Or did they just make up the results ?
No-one asked me.



KRIZDA88
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29 Apr 2007, 4:22 pm

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You're the one saying it's impossible. See if you can prove it, buddy. We're just saying that these molecules somehow got from Point A to Point B, attested by the fact that we are present. We're exploring a variety of plausible possibilities as to how, and nothing is really off the table. Whether you're mature enough to realize it or not, scientists actually do admit the possibility of intentional seeding, but it doesn't give them anything to study. Examining the behavior of base molecules, however, is quite at their disposal, so this is what they end up doing the most writing on.


I'm not the one saying it's immpossible the people who did the math say it's impossible. I challege you to personally research what it takes to form an amino acid or a protien without the instruction of DNA and then we can talk.


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Kosmonaut
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29 Apr 2007, 4:26 pm

It reminds me of Dr.Strangelove.
"Our source was the New York Times."
:lol:



TheMachine1
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29 Apr 2007, 5:29 pm

KRIZDA88 wrote:
I'm not the one saying it's immpossible the people who did the math say it's impossible. I challege you to personally research what it takes to form an amino acid or a protien without the instruction of DNA and then we can talk.


http://www.chem.duke.edu/~jds/cruise_ch ... iller.html



Griff
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29 Apr 2007, 5:33 pm

KRIZDA88 wrote:
I've studied this subject for years, and don't several research papers on it.
So have I. I was motivated by curiosity.

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The size of the universe as a whole doesn't anwer the questoin of life here.
The size of the universe is irrelevant. Life exists in the universe, and it had to have come from somewhere. The only empirically observable processes are contained to familiar organic chemistry. Fortunately, we are getting close to a plausible theory.

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I bet you'd say under the right cercumstances a tornado could sweep thourgh a junk yard and assemble and perfect 747 too. IT IS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.
If a machine had been built in the junkyard that does the work of assembling such an aircraft, all that would be required would be for a piece of debris to throw a switch.

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What part of that don't you understand?
I understand your reasoning perfectly. It's just wrong. Dude, you know what I hate about people like yourself? You act on the assumption that atheists are blithering idiots, and you talk to us as if you're addressing people who just stepped off the short bus. You're not going to get anywhere with people until you've gotten it into your head that you're dealing with highly intelligent, reasoning people. You know, dude, I keep seeing atheists making the same mistake, and this is why these discussions never get anywhere. They're idiotic in so many ways, I don't know where to start.

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For people who put so much trust in the empirical you sure are choosey about which empirical facts you believe.
No.

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Even my ardent evolutionist geology proffessor (degree from harvard) admitted that science can't explain the existence of DNA.
It can't. It simply can't because any evidence of its passing would have almost certainly have been brushed away by the ravages of time. We can assert plausible theories, but we cannot explain how life actually came about on this particular rock simply because there is no possible way for us to know.

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You guys are the wishful thinkers not me.
Dude, you sound so defensive. Take a chill pill, man. Besides, no one here called you a "wishful thinker." I understand that a lot of cruel people like to give religious people a hard time, but you're not getting that treatment at present. Shush.



Griff
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29 Apr 2007, 5:48 pm

KRIZDA88 wrote:
I'm not the one saying it's immpossible the people who did the math say it's impossible. I challege you to personally research what it takes to form an amino acid or a protien without the instruction of DNA and then we can talk.
Organic compounds are formed in nature all the time, though. You'd just need a constant, high input of energy in order to eventually result in a self-replicating mechanism, given something about the size of a geologically diverse planet.



jimservo
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29 Apr 2007, 7:57 pm

I a not a religious person by any standard definition. I know, and am a friend of a religious Christian, although she isn't a member of any organized religion that I am aware of. I also have listened to religious people and read magazines and columns from religious people (although admittedly I usually skip articles that delve too deeply into spiritual matters).

However, from what I can tell there isn't a single "formula" per say. Different Christians (and different Christian grous) believe different things, and have different interpretations of events in both scripture and events since the New Testament was written.

As an example, for the most radical group you would have people that take things absolutely literally and hence say that fossils of prehistoric creatures are "a test of God" or something like that. This, however, would not be representative of the official viewpoints of any of the major Christian organized religions today.

It is true that the two members of religion X are likely to try to raise there child in that same environment. However success is not most likely unless one desires to live in a self imposed ghetto. Otherwise it, at least in this country, has proven not exactly a certainty. The surrounding environment is important as well, with members of members of religions converting (we are seeing that among some Hispanics in the South).



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29 Apr 2007, 8:20 pm

10 Reasons To Believe In Christianity

1.) THE CREDIBILITY OF ITS FOUNDER.
Christ said He came from heaven to fulfill prophecy, to die for our sins, and to bring to His Father all who believe in Him. Logic says that He was either a liar, a lunatic, a legend, or the Lord of heaven. His first-century followers drew their own conclusions. They said they saw Him walk on water, still a storm, heal crippled limbs, feed 5,000 with a few pieces of bread and fish, live a blameless life, die a terrible death, and alive again. During His ministry, when some of Jesus' followers took issue with His teachings and left, He asked those closest to Him if they too wanted to leave. Peter spoke for the others when he said, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (John 6:68-69).

2.) THE RELIABILITY OF ITS BOOK.

Written over a period of about 1,600 years by 40 different authors, the book on which the Christian faith rests tells one story that beings with creation and concludes on the threshold of eternity. The integrity of its historical and geographical record is supported by archeology. The accuracy with which it has been copied and handed down to us has been confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran. Originating neither in the East or the West, but in the Middle East--the cradle of civilization--the Bible continues to speak not only with spiritual power but with convincing prophetic accuracy.

3.) ITS EXPLANATIONS FOR LIFE.

All religious systems attempt to give meaning to our existence. All attempt to explain our thirst for significance, the problem of pain, and the inevitability of death. All religions attempt to apply the design of the cosmos to our individual lives. It is the Christian faith, however, that reflects the caring attention to detail so evident in the species and ecosystems of the natural world. It is Christ who speaks of a Father who takes note of every sparrow that falls, a Father who numbers even the hairs of our head (Matthew 10:29-31). It is Christ who reveals a God who shows how much He cares for all that He has created. It is Christ who clothed Himself in our humanity to feel what we feel, and then to suffer and die in our place. It is Christ who reveals a God who cares as much about His creation as the design and detail of the natural world indicates (Psalm 19:1-6; Romans 1:16-25).

4.) ITS CONTINUITY WITH THE PAST.

The Christian faith offers continuity with our deepest ancestral roots. Those who trust Christ are accepting the same Creator and Lord worshipped by Adam, Abraham, Sarah, and Solomon. Jesus didn't reject the past. He was the God of the past (John 1:14). When He lived among us, He showed us how to live according to the original plan. When He died, He fulfilled the whole Old Testament sacrificial system. And when He rose from the dead, the salvation He offered fulfilled God's promise to Abraham that through his descendant He would bring blessing to the whole world. The Christian faith is not new with Christ. From Genesis to Revelation it is one story. It is His story--and ours (Acts 2:22-39; 1 Corinthians 15:1-8).

5.) ITS FOUNDATIONAL CLAIM.

The first Christians were not driven by political or religious dissent. Their primary issues were not moral or social. They were not well-credentialed theologians or social philosophers. They were witnesses. They risked their lives to tell the world that with their own eyes they had seen and innocent man die and then miraculously walk among them 3 days later (Acts 5:17-42). Their argument was very concrete. Jesus was crucified under the Roman governor Pontius Pilate. His body was buried and sealed in a borrowed tomb. Guards were posted to prevent grave tampering. Yet after 3 days the tomb was empty and witnesses were risking their lives to declare that He was alive.

6. ITS POWER TO CHANGE LIVES.

Not only were the fist disciples dramatically changes, but so was one of their worst enemies. Paul was changed, but so was one of their worst enemies. Paul was transformed from a Christian killer into one of their chief advocates (Galatians 1:11-24). Later he reflected the changes that had occurred in others as well when he wrote to the church in Corinth, "Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

7. ITS ANALYSIS OF HUMAN NATURE.

The Bible says that society's real problems are problems of the heart. In an age of information and technology, failures of character have scandalized institutions of family, government, science, industry, religion, education, and the arts. In the most sophisticated society the world has ever known, our national reputation is marred by problems of racial prejudice, addiction, abuse, divorce, and sexually transmitted disease. Many want to believe that our problems are rooted in ignorance, diet, and government. But to our generation and all others, Jesus said, "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man" (Matthew 15:19-20).

8.) ITS VIEW OF HUMAN ACHIEVEMENT.

Generation after generation has hope for the best. We fought wars that would end all wars. We developed educational theories that would produce enlightened, nonviolent children. We conceived technologies that would deliver us from the oppressive slavery of work. Yet we are as close as ever to what the New Testament describes as an endtime marked by wars and rumors of war, earthquakes, disease, loss of affection, and spiritual deception (Matthew 24:5-31; 2 Timothy 3:1-5).

9.) ITS IMPACT ON SOCIETY.

A carpenter rabbi from Nazareth changed the world. Calendars and dated documents bear silent witness to His birth. From rooftops, necklaces, and earrings, the sign of the cross bears visual witness to His death. The Western world-view, which provided a basis for social morality, scientific methodology, and a work ethic that fueled industry, had roots in basic Christian values. Social relief agencies, whether in the West or East, are not fueled by the values of Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism, or secular agnosticism, but by the direct or residual values of the Bible.

10.) ITS OFFER OF SALVATION.

Alternative religious views have saviors who remain in the grave. No other system offers everlasting life as a gift to those who trust One who has overcome death for them. No other system offers assurance of forgiveness, eternal life, and adoption into the family of God by calling on and trusting Someone in the same way a drowning person calls for and relies on the rescue of a lifeguard (Romans 10:9-13). The salvation Christ offers does not depend on what we have done for Him, but on our acceptance of what He has done for us. Instead of moral and religious effort, this salvation requires a helpless admission of our sins. Instead of personal accomplishments of faith, it requires confession of failure. Unlike all other options of faith, Christ asks us to follow Him--not to merit salvation but as an expression of gratitude, love, and confidence in the One who has saved us (Ephesians 2:8-10)

You are not alone if you are still unconvinced about the reasonableness of faith in Christ. But keep in mind Jesus' claim that we don't have to resolve our doubts on our own. He said, "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether My teaching comes from God or whether I speak on My own" (John 7:17). If you do see the reasonableness of faith in Christ, keep in mind that the Bible says to the family of God, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). The salvation Christ offers is not a reward for effort, but a gift to all who put their trust in Him.



George_Orwell
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29 Apr 2007, 8:47 pm

OK, where's the punchline ??



lelia
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29 Apr 2007, 10:11 pm

Nice post juggernaut. Uh, you do realize juggernaut is a hindu giant cart carrying I forget which god that during a festival is pulled through streets and sometimes crushes people?

techstepgenr: My husband and I read the article in Times about the faith gene and took the test. Both of us should be raging athiests. Instead he is an elder and board member. I figure I truly live by faith because I don't have the spiritual emotions it seems everyone else has.



techstepgenr8tion
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29 Apr 2007, 10:18 pm

lelia wrote:
Nice post juggernaut. Uh, you do realize juggernaut is a hindu giant cart carrying I forget which god that during a festival is pulled through streets and sometimes crushes people?

techstepgenr: My husband and I read the article in Times about the faith gene and took the test. Both of us should be raging athiests. Instead he is an elder and board member. I figure I truly live by faith because I don't have the spiritual emotions it seems everyone else has.


(shakes his head)

I'm not really supposed to say anything I think at this point but it really bugs me, if god is legit, why he can't show the supporting evidence that someone like me would need - especially if I'd love to actually believe other than I do if I had the proof. Its like the world in the way it works is saying that my trying to press it logically is me being some kind of sad pessimist who's somehow stubbornly got his head stuck way up his arse and just can't get that you aren't supposed to chase reality but 'feel' and go with what you want to see or what you're taught to see. Wow do I love this world... I try to take what I feel is the high road, being as honest with myself as I can, and apparently that's just pathetic and lacking wisdom :?



Juggernaut
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29 Apr 2007, 10:41 pm

lelia wrote:
Uh, you do realize juggernaut is a hindu giant cart carrying I forget which god that during a festival is pulled through streets and sometimes crushes people?



Yes I do, but thats not what I named myself after. I named myself after the Xmen comic book character Juggernaut.



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29 Apr 2007, 10:58 pm

To follow up that last post I think what it really comes down to, it feels like if I were to jump into the 'christian' culture, just the way it is in a nutshell and the way people tend toward handling it steals from me being my best self - badly. Whenever I've been in those situations I've not only felt totally repressed but completely misunderstood and like my strengths had to be completely lost for the fact that they had nothing to do with the simple reality that this sort of lifestyle tends to lay out. If god created me to be who I am I want him to help me reconcile it and I want him to show me just what's up with me in terms of having this mindset, this mental build, this set of feelings that pushes me away and keeps me from ever being happy with just going with the flow of society. The hardest part in it all is seeing that all human hypocracy and evil really seems to come down to animalism, especially the way people with disabilities are shunned or even shun each other as if things are absolutely supposed to be done that way - that just wreaks of genetic control and a strong tendency for in-built eugenics which technically should not matter at all if there's a god on high where the realities of our world really come down to religion and just being a 'good' person. Of course these are things I'm not supposed to see and if I do see them its as if its projected on me by people in general that I have a problem...



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30 Apr 2007, 7:34 am

I think you've hit on a very good point. That of the conflict between our physical, animalistic and selfish urges, and that of the higher spiritual desires. What is good about the Bible is that this is a major theme--the conflict of spirit and body.


"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which his idolatry" (Colossians 3:5)

"Each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable" (1 Thessalonians 4:4)

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us tosay "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age" (Titus 2:11-12)

"You, my brothhers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love." (Galatians 5:13 )

"So I say, live by the spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of thesinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflic with each other, so that you do not do waht you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law" (Galatians 5:16-18 )

"put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its decietful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness" (Ephesians 4:22-24)


But as much as the Bible talks about getting rid of our earthly desires, God realizes we can't do it on our own. Thats why he doesn't require us to be perfect--he does, but only through Christ can we be this way. And another good thing about it is that its not about flogging ourselves and saying, I'm such a bad person let me destroy who I am, as some see it, its about saying, I am so much more than this, why should I be a slave to my temporal needs? The body was meant to serve the spirit, not the spirit serve the body.



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30 Apr 2007, 8:31 am

This is an interesting question.

[Backround] I consider myself a christian, converted from agnostic, converted from athiest, converted from christian. I was born and baptised a catholic but then hit a run of tragedy which rocked my world, so to speak. My dad died, my mom remarried an abusive guy, fun was had by all. Anyways, skip ahead and I was left jaded and driven away from religon in general by some really bad evangelical nonsense. [/Backround]

Anywho, enough of my backround on the issue. My formula for religon was basically reading and researching the bible and its meanings (including apocrypha and all that) but doing so with the same scrutiny for the good book as I would show for science. Paired with the realization that athiests and christians aren't opposed factions: I don't believe theology to be any more a waste of time than studying physics or biology. Both seek to better the world in one way or another. Both deal with the discovery of an underlying truth to all things, one small step at a time.

So I guess the simplified formula would be: My personal study of religon, theology, and the nature of faith and feelings plus finding a single underlying theme to all of the successful religons plus a hard look at the science existing to disprove the existance of a God of some sort lacking and in some cases a bit biased paired with a look at our history and how much better we are now than we have ever been and getting better in terms of how we treat eachother all the time has lead me to the conclusion that there is a God and the God does love us equals I am a christian. Being objective of both science and theolgy has led me to this conclusion.

Will it lead anyone else to the same? I would guess not but it worked for me.

Is it too late to add that I suck at math and writing formulas?



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30 Apr 2007, 2:04 pm

Juggernaut wrote:
10 Reasons To Believe In Christianity

10.) ITS OFFER OF SALVATION.

Alternative religious views have saviors who remain in the grave. No other system offers everlasting life as a gift to those who trust One who has overcome death for them. No other system offers assurance of forgiveness, eternal life, and adoption into the family of God by calling on and trusting Someone in the same way a drowning person calls for and relies on the rescue of a lifeguard (Romans 10:9-13). .


Ok!! I detect a formula; however, it is much like saying the true religion must be the one that makes the most promices and offers the most.

Thus appealing to human greed. because without these promice people would be selfish to help help out god