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What kind of feminist are you?
I'm radical - I want men out of my feminist agenda, I only sleep with womyn and it's NOT funny, you chauvinist pig. 6%  6%  [ 3 ]
I'm liberal - I think it's a women's responsibility to run equally with men. A woman should have it all because now she can. 31%  31%  [ 15 ]
I'm Marxist - I think of gender in terms of socialist metaphor about work and alienation. I've often wondered if I'd stop smothering my children if I gave birth to them one extremity at a time 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
I'm postmodern - Many of my feminist friends are men, Judith Butler bends my mind (and it feels so good) and gender expression is as important as a dust bunny... but if I've acknowledged it, do I acknowledge its ec-static self? 21%  21%  [ 10 ]
I'm not a feminist - It's all so confusing, I don't know where to begin! 10%  10%  [ 5 ]
I hate feminists - they're just ball-busting, man-hating, baby-eating, fire-starting, rabble-rousing loudmouths. Like Rosie O'Donnell. I hate feminists. 13%  13%  [ 6 ]
I don't know if we need feminism... I thought we were beyond all of this. 17%  17%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 48

Jainaday
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10 Aug 2007, 11:18 pm

Not particularly; only wondering if I misunderstood what "NO guys allowed!," as in the forum description, was intended to imply.


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Pandora
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11 Aug 2007, 3:28 am

Jainaday wrote:
On the wage gap-

It is for the same hours. IMHO, the issue is really about what jobs (traditionally male ones) receive the highest pay, and about maternity leave, policies that deal with parenting and how that effects a career, and so forth.

I think the only way for women to attain real equality- which must include economic equality- is for our society to address parenting and make supporting it a priority, on the part of both parents.


On Wiggerbeater-

How does one go about getting this guy banned for- shall we say, disrespectufully presenting his argument? But most especially in the women's forum. . .
Jainaday, I think you could PM the moderator of this forum and make a complaint.


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11 Aug 2007, 4:00 am

Yupa wrote:
Jainaday wrote:
In principle, I must agree; gender egalitarian is what we're really looking for.

In practice. . . well, goodness, we can vote and own property, what am I complaining about?


Well, there is the whole issue of women being paid lower wages for no logical reason that I can think of. That's something that definitely needs to be sorted out.


If women really were paid less than men for the same job, then corporations would fire all the men.

Reason Magazine wrote:
What we know from an array of evidence, including this report, is that most if not all of the discrepancy can be traced to factors other than sexism...

On its face, the evidence in the AAUW study looks damning. "One year out of college," it says, "women working full-time earn only 80 percent as much as their male colleagues earn. Ten years after graduation, women fall farther behind, earning only 69 percent as much as men earn."

But read more, and you learn things that don't get much notice on Equal Pay Day. As the report acknowledges, women with college degrees tend to go into fields like education, psychology and the humanities, which typically pay less than the sectors preferred by men, such as engineering, math and business. They are also more likely than men to work for nonprofit groups and local governments, which do not offer salaries that Alex Rodriguez would envy.

As they get older, many women elect to work less so they can spend time with their children. A decade after graduation, 39 percent of women are out of the work force or working part time -- compared with only 3 percent of men. When these mothers return to full-time jobs, they naturally earn less than they would have if they had never left.

Buried in the report is a startling admission: "After accounting for all factors known to affect wages, about one-quarter of the gap remains unexplained and may be attributed to discrimination". Another way to put it is that three-quarters of the gap clearly has innocent causes -- and that we actually don't know whether discrimination accounts for the rest.

I asked Harvard economist Claudia Goldin if there is sufficient evidence to conclude that women experience systematic pay discrimination. "No," she replied...

June O'Neill, an economist at Baruch College and former director of the Congressional Budget Office, has uncovered something that debunks the discrimination thesis. Take out the effects of marriage and child-rearing, and the difference between the genders suddenly vanishes. "For men and women who never marry and never have children, there is no earnings gap," she said in an interview.



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11 Aug 2007, 4:06 am

Jainaday wrote:
It is for the same hours. IMHO, the issue is really about what jobs (traditionally male ones) receive the highest pay, and about maternity leave, policies that deal with parenting and how that effects a career, and so forth.


Top-down regulation of the economy still doesn't work.

Communism (and the other -ism bastard children of Hegel) is a great system... for ants, but not for human beings.



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11 Aug 2007, 4:12 am

Jainaday wrote:
Not particularly; only wondering if I misunderstood what "NO guys allowed!," as in the forum description, was intended to imply.


I don't know about the other guy but this thread was found by doing a search for "feminism" which is a political topic, not a XX chromosome topic.

Feminists beat down the door to "men's only" clubs, so why be upset when one's own standards are enforced on oneself?

:roll:



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11 Aug 2007, 9:47 am

You may find this to be of interest.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/modules.php? ... sc&start=0

I'm OK with, for example, the idea of a men's only forum on WP, provided it's held to the censorship as the rest of the site (like the women's forum) and that it's open to general reading (like the women's forum).

There are a lot of topics of great interest to both genders which could be beneficial to discuss in a more sheltered space at times.

And, to follow your rabbit trail, I feel the need to throw out there that communism doesn't necessarily entail top-down regulation. . . perhaps another thread about this would be best.


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Jainaday
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11 Aug 2007, 9:58 am

. . .

One more though on the "top down regulation" issue, more relevant to the thread-

We have decided, as a society, that certain practices are unacceptable; slavery comes to mind, and the use of hfcs in manufacturing, or lead in paint. Personally, I think- given the technology we have, and the productivity that entails, we can afford to put some other limits on the economy for ethical reasons.

Here's an overview of some things being done in Europe to support parenting.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Europ ... ilies.html


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Yupa
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11 Aug 2007, 10:28 am

Jainaday wrote:
Not particularly; only wondering if I misunderstood what "NO guys allowed!," as in the forum description, was intended to imply.

I personally think the rule should be changed to something more along the lines of "Guys are allowed provided that they don't make irrelevant/insensitive/moronic comments" (although somewhat more politely phrased)



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11 Aug 2007, 10:32 am

Jainaday wrote:
I'm OK with, for example, the idea of a men's only forum on WP, provided it's held to the censorship as the rest of the site (like the women's forum) and that it's open to general reading (like the women's forum).


There was one for a while, but it wasn't held to the same standards as the rest of the site and it got removed as a result.
Partly because I was asked to moderate it, and, since I'm not really the leader/enforcer type, that was kind of a mistake...



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11 Aug 2007, 10:55 am

Given that it's not even slightly enforced, I'm not sure it can really be described as a rule. . .

I'd worry that "no insensitive/moronic etc." would be a wee bit subjective to enforce. . .


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11 Aug 2007, 11:06 pm

Elemental wrote:
always be the initiator of romance or sex.

I would like to politely disagree on the last half of that last point.
If a woman attempts to initiate sex by asking a man for sexual favors (regardless of how well she knows him), then he is seen as lucky, and his friends (if they know about it) will encourage him to "go for it", and if he passes up the chance they will either see him as a coward or questions will be raised about his sexuality.
If a man attempts to initiate sex by asking a woman for sexual favors (unless they know each other well, and even then) it is the woman's obligation to refuse, and if she accepts such an offer her friends (if they know about it) will consider her a slut and her reputation will be ruined. Why a similar unwritten rule is not applied to males I have no idea.



Yupa
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11 Aug 2007, 11:33 pm

Jainaday wrote:
Given that it's not even slightly enforced, I'm not sure it can really be described as a rule. . .

I'd worry that "no insensitive/moronic etc." would be a wee bit subjective to enforce. . .

Well, there are some objective insensitive/moronic things. Promoting prejudice and hate crimes is both insensitive and moronic. Promoting any other activity or idea known to be immoral or disrespectful falls into the same two categories. Responding to a person who says something traumatic happened to them with "you deserved it" or "you should feel good about it" is another example of both insensitivity and idiocy.



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12 Aug 2007, 4:36 am

I'm not saying there aren't obvious cases, just that, when creating a sheltered environment, deciding where to draw the line could be particularly hard.


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12 Aug 2007, 5:58 am

I voted liberal.



Pandora
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12 Aug 2007, 10:27 am

Personally, I wouldn't find too much trouble in drawing the line.


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Jainaday
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12 Aug 2007, 11:55 am

And perhaps leaving it up to one person is the only clean solution . . . after, of course, figuring out which person.


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