The eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs...

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JimJohn
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03 Feb 2023, 2:53 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:

One would think that a divine being would avoid speaking figuratively about such a topic and would, instead, say directly what he, she, or they means to avoid certain confusion and harm.

He would have less people to torture for eternity that way.

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03 Feb 2023, 3:10 pm

JimJohn wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

One would think that a divine being would avoid speaking figuratively about such a topic and would, instead, say directly what he, she, or they means to avoid certain confusion and harm.

He would have less people to torture for eternity that way.

Good point!

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Honey69
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03 Feb 2023, 6:11 pm

klanka wrote:

There is more than one way of interpreting this. You might be wrong, and Origen might be right.

klanka wrote:

The kingdom of heaven is the Christian afterlife or referring to the Christian community here on earth so it can't be referring to followers of Cybele, as that is a non-Christian god.

If Jesus was deploying sarcasm, then he might have been referring to the followers of Cybele. Apparently, the Christian worship of the Virgin Mary descended from the worship of Cybele.

https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2005/2005.05.48/

Quote:

Most Christians understand the sarcasm or ignore that verse or explain it away as celibacy.

Most Christians these days would probably rather not think about castration. The practice has generally fallen out of fashion. From what I understand, North Africans and Ottomans of yore would castrate captives to become slaves. Many would not survive the procedure. In America, particularly after the legal importation of new slaves was prohibited, breeding was the only way to generate new slaves. Hence, castrating slaves would have been uneconomical.

The Catholic interpretation of the passage to signify that priests ought to be celibate is contradicted in 1 Timothy 3:

"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?"

Quote:

Later in the Bible it says there were great multitudes in heaven so castrating oneself cannot be a barrier for entry.

Great multitudes of eunuchs in Heaven? Where does it say that?

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TwilightPrincess
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03 Feb 2023, 6:27 pm

The Bible contains many contradictions.

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Texasmoneyman300
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03 Feb 2023, 10:17 pm

klanka wrote:

I think you misunderstood, I don't think he's telling people to literally castrate themselves. But he is... sarcastically.. which is why Christians have actually done it: like origen... because they didn't understand the sarcasm.

The kingdom of heaven is the Christian afterlife or referring to the Christian community here on earth so it can't be referring to followers of Cybele, as that is a non-Christian god.

There was a Christian sect that practiced castration literally. Can't remember what they were called at the moment.

Most Christians understand the sarcasm or ignore that verse or explain it away as celibacy.
Later in the Bible it says there were great multitudes in heaven so castrating oneself cannot be a barrier for entry.

I dont know if this is the sect you were talking about but Heaven's Gate was a Christian group that practiced literal castration to control their sexual desires as men.

klanka
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04 Feb 2023, 5:25 am

I meant not castrating yourself can't be a reason to be denied entrance to heaven.... because there are many people there.

Didn't know that about heavens gate, there was also another sect in the past that did it.

Well, I certainly hope Origen wasn't correct

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04 Feb 2023, 9:34 am

Twilightprincess wrote:

The Bible contains many contradictions.

Yes. But if some people are going to lift a possibly sarcastic passage about eunuchs out of context to mean that church leaders need to be celibate, then they really shouldn't skip the part that says explicitly that church leaders absolutely have to have a wife and children.

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Dengashinobi
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04 Feb 2023, 9:45 am

Twilightprincess wrote:

One would think that a divine being would avoid speaking figuratively about such a topic and would, instead, say directly what he, she, or they means to avoid certain confusion and harm.

"They", talking about imaginary things. :wink:

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04 Feb 2023, 9:47 am

Honey69 wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

The Bible contains many contradictions.

1 Corinthians 7:8, 9 says:

Quote:

Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

The Bible clearly has contradictory messages here. It all depends on what a person wants to follow. My former religion believed that being single was best but that, if one had to get married to avoid “sinning,” a man should marry one wife.

The Bible can be used to justify just about any stance with anything. Some people use the Old Testament to justify bigamy.

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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 04 Feb 2023, 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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04 Feb 2023, 9:48 am

Dengashinobi wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

One would think that a divine being would avoid speaking figuratively about such a topic and would, instead, say directly what he, she, or they means to avoid certain confusion and harm.

"They", talking about imaginary things. :wink:

“They” is far less imaginary than the god(s) of the Bible. There’s more than sufficient evidence that “they” exist.

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Dengashinobi
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04 Feb 2023, 11:14 am

Twilightprincess wrote:

Dengashinobi wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

One would think that a divine being would avoid speaking figuratively about such a topic and would, instead, say directly what he, she, or they means to avoid certain confusion and harm.

"They", talking about imaginary things. :wink:

“They” is far less imaginary than the god(s) of the Bible. There’s more than sufficient evidence that “they” exist.

"Far less" is not a very convincing argument.

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04 Feb 2023, 11:18 am

Dengashinobi wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

Dengashinobi wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

One would think that a divine being would avoid speaking figuratively about such a topic and would, instead, say directly what he, she, or they means to avoid certain confusion and harm.

"They", talking about imaginary things. :wink:

“They” is far less imaginary than the god(s) of the Bible. There’s more than sufficient evidence that “they” exist.

"Far less" is not a very convincing argument.

This has been discussed in a different thread. Let’s not derail this one further.

It’s crazy to me that people ever thought that eunuchs were a good idea, especially when the procedure carried such risks.

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Honey69
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04 Feb 2023, 1:23 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:

1 Corinthians 7:8, 9 says:

Quote:

That's just Paul, who was asexual.

Twilightprincess wrote:

The Bible can be used to justify just about any stance with anything. Some people use the Old Testament to justify bigamy.

Jews who live in Islamic countries continue to practice polygyny. European Jews decided to go with monogamy about 1,000 years ago. When modern Israel was created, the European Jews who moved there were accustomed to monogamy, but had to deal with polygynous Jews who moved there from Islamic countries.

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Honey69
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04 Feb 2023, 4:19 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:

It’s crazy to me that people ever thought that eunuchs were a good idea, especially when the procedure carried such risks.

One of Martial's best-known epigrams:

"Do you ask, Pannicus, why your wife Caelia has about her only priests of Cybele? Caelia loves the flowers of marriage, but fears the fruits."

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Honey69
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05 Feb 2023, 11:05 am

"...there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake."

I forgot about modern transgender folk. This might apply to them. If your soul is female, but, through some cock-up, was assigned to a male body, then the gender reassignment surgery might correct this error "for the kingdom of heaven's sake."

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klanka
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05 Feb 2023, 11:17 am

That's one way of looking at it

If you look at the book of Matthew as a whole it is about being morally perfect. Castrating oneself would remove the possibility of committing a sexual sin.

But, as that is obviously beyond what people would reasonably do, the book of John is the answer: just believe.

It is meant to be ridiculous on purpose I think because women can't do that to save their souls, if they were prone to sexual sins.

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