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The twelve disciples of Jesus

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blitzkrieg
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04 Aug 2023, 7:36 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I'm a big fan of Peter.

I like my disciples countercultural.

No seriously. I attend(ed) St. Peter's.

I even have the necklace.


Do you mean the church or a school perhaps? I'm guessing the former.


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IsabellaLinton
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04 Aug 2023, 10:16 am

St. Peter's Church of England.


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blitzkrieg
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04 Aug 2023, 11:54 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
St. Peter's Church of England.


That's great!

I went to two catholic schools in my youth, though I've never been a frequent church-goer.


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RetroGamer87
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05 Aug 2023, 9:20 am

Is there something significant about the number 12?


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naturalplastic
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06 Aug 2023, 2:35 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Is there something significant about the number 12?


Actually yes. Before the Biblical Hebrews arithmetic (along with middle eastern civilization itself) was invented by the Sumerians and Babylonians in Mesopotomia. Their number system was based upon counting in ten groups of six...lumps of sixty. Unlike our purely ten based system which goes ten-100-1000. They invented the 360 degrees in a circle and 24 hours in a day.


But they also had a system of sacred numbers based on seven rather than six. So...two times six is 12, and two times seven is 14. That makes 13 out of step with both counting systems. So thats how 13 became an unlucky number. Judas was the 13th disciple of Christ...and he messed things up. And the same thing crops up in the mythology of Pagan Europe ...twelve of the Nordic gods of Valhalla had a big feast at Asguard, and Loki showed up as the 13th guest....and all heck broke loose.



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08 Aug 2023, 2:58 am

I recommend the series "The Chosen." For me it's the best Jesus movie / Series I've ever seen. It's appeal is far and wide and very inclusive. The series enters into the relationship between Jesus and the disciples in a way that is stunning and profoundly beautiful.


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IsabellaLinton
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08 Aug 2023, 3:14 am

Why would anyone want to be someone's disciple?

Eeeek.


I'd rather make my own religion.


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blitzkrieg
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08 Aug 2023, 5:46 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Why would anyone want to be someone's disciple?

Eeeek.


I'd rather make my own religion.


I suppose being a disciple would have been more of a normal thing back in those days, and especially if, as a disciple, you were following somebody who was meant to be the son of God. If you'd have believed that, at the time.


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08 Aug 2023, 5:50 am

If I was around then, I would definitely follow Jesus. He had an anarchist Orientation towards power and a pasifist Orientation towards violence. It was visionary then and is so today... as for religion... no comment.


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naturalplastic
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08 Aug 2023, 7:56 am

blitzkrieg wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Why would anyone want to be someone's disciple?

Eeeek.


I'd rather make my own religion.


I suppose being a disciple would have been more of a normal thing back in those days, and especially if, as a disciple, you were following somebody who was meant to be the son of God. If you'd have believed that, at the time.


Are you kidding?

Its normal in every age.

Strictly speaking a "disciple" is someone who just follows X and studies and subscribes to the thing. An "apostle" is like a missionary...someone who goes out to actively spread the belief.

The original 12 were disciples. Some later also became apostles. And two millenia later we still have both disciples and apostles for Christ.

Someone can be a disciple of Karl Marx. And many still are despite the fall of Communism. And some...like Lenin, and Che Guavara, became actual apostles of Marx during the 20th Century. Not alien to our time at all. Folks today become discliples and even apostles of all kinds of creeds (religious, secular, ancient, modern, and modern variations of ancient creeds).



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08 Aug 2023, 8:29 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Why would anyone want to be someone's disciple?

Materially it was probably a better job than fishing. Jesus was attracting crowds and coming over as an alpha-male. Organised religion can be very lucrative and there's no really hard work to do. People start looking up to you. I wouldn't like it myself, but I can see the attraction.

I gather the idea of being a disciple is that you attach yourself to a teacher and learn from them how to teach what they're teaching. Makes sense as long as the teaching is correct and useful.

At the time there was a strong expectation that there would be a "Messiah" who would "redeem the captive Israel," which seems to mean that everything was soon to be run properly, kicking out the Romans and anybody else who messed with God's chosen people. Even after the crucifixion, many still thought Jesus would soon be back to fulfil the prophecies. So being a disciple would have felt like being on the right side of history. In the same way, communism has this notion that one day it will be the natural political system of the whole world. In both cases the idea has lost some of its sparkle since time has shown that it didn't happen, but there have been times when it seemed very likely.



blitzkrieg
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08 Aug 2023, 8:49 am

naturalplastic wrote:
blitzkrieg wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Why would anyone want to be someone's disciple?

Eeeek.


I'd rather make my own religion.


I suppose being a disciple would have been more of a normal thing back in those days, and especially if, as a disciple, you were following somebody who was meant to be the son of God. If you'd have believed that, at the time.


Are you kidding?

Its normal in every age.

Strictly speaking a "disciple" is someone who just follows X and studies and subscribes to the thing. An "apostle" is like a missionary...someone who goes out to actively spread the belief.

The original 12 were disciples. Some later also became apostles. And two millenia later we still have both disciples and apostles for Christ.

Someone can be a disciple of Karl Marx. And many still are despite the fall of Communism. And some...like Lenin, and Che Guavara, became actual apostles of Marx during the 20th Century. Not alien to our time at all. Folks today become discliples and even apostles of all kinds of creeds (religious, secular, ancient, modern, and modern variations of ancient creeds).


Well, I live in the UK which nowadays is mostly a secular society, with very few people who genuinely believe in the teachings of Christianity, or who care about Jesus or the bible.

So from my neck of the woods, I think it would be fair to say that today, it is not common for people in general to be disciples of any sort.

I suppose if you apply the meaning of the word disciple to a school of thought or ideology, then yes, there are many of those today in every country.

When I implied that disciples weren't that common today, I specifically meant in a religious context and within the geography of the UK.

Pardon me for not specifying.


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blitzkrieg
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08 Aug 2023, 8:52 am

^ I'll add to that, I think if you polled people on whether they identified as a disciple, most people would likely respond "no", I am guessing.

Perhaps you have a different opinion naturalplastic?


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naturalplastic
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08 Aug 2023, 10:53 am

blitzkrieg wrote:
^ I'll add to that, I think if you polled people on whether they identified as a disciple, most people would likely respond "no", I am guessing.

Perhaps you have a different opinion naturalplastic?


The same poll would have the same result 2000 years ago. Most folks in Jesus's time would have obeyed the priesthood of whatever nation they were part of and paid homage to whatever local gods they had (Greeks to the gods of Olympus, Celts to the Celtic dieties, Jews of Judea to their one god Yaweh, and so on). Only a minority would have said that they followed such and such a teacher. A very few would have said "I and eleven other guys follow this unemployed carpenter guy everywhere he goes because I am convinced that he is the son of God".



blitzkrieg
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08 Aug 2023, 11:39 am

naturalplastic wrote:
blitzkrieg wrote:
^ I'll add to that, I think if you polled people on whether they identified as a disciple, most people would likely respond "no", I am guessing.

Perhaps you have a different opinion naturalplastic?


The same poll would have the same result 2000 years ago. Most folks in Jesus's time would have obeyed the priesthood of whatever nation they were part of and paid homage to whatever local gods they had (Greeks to the gods of Olympus, Celts to the Celtic dieties, Jews of Judea to their one god Yaweh, and so on). Only a minority would have said that they followed such and such a teacher. A very few would have said "I and eleven other guys follow this unemployed carpenter guy everywhere he goes because I am convinced that he is the son of God".


Just to let you know, that sentence made me lol. :lol:


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RetroGamer87
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08 Aug 2023, 3:25 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Is there something significant about the number 12?


Actually yes. Before the Biblical Hebrews arithmetic (along with middle eastern civilization itself) was invented by the Sumerians and Babylonians in Mesopotomia. Their number system was based upon counting in ten groups of six...lumps of sixty. Unlike our purely ten based system which goes ten-100-1000. They invented the 360 degrees in a circle and 24 hours in a day.


But they also had a system of sacred numbers based on seven rather than six. So...two times six is 12, and two times seven is 14. That makes 13 out of step with both counting systems. So thats how 13 became an unlucky number. Judas was the 13th disciple of Christ...and he messed things up. And the same thing crops up in the mythology of Pagan Europe ...twelve of the Nordic gods of Valhalla had a big feast at Asguard, and Loki showed up as the 13th guest....and all heck broke loose.


Does that mean when the wrote the Gospels they based they based the number of disciples on having a significant number (or an unlucky number if you could Judas) rather than the amount he actually had?


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