The murder of craig sorger

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It seems no-one else shares my beliefs. Well then I guess we shall just have to agree to disagree.

*goes off and listens to "Hurricane"*

I agree with you that we don't have the right to impose the death sentance, however I am not so sure about the idea that people shouldn't be put in jail. In terms of these boys, I don't think that jail is the most helpful thing for two 12 year old boys, as they are children. Perhaps they were raised in a violent manner, perhpas they are mentally ill, perhaps they are just acting out video games. Who knows? Either way, they are kids, and there has got to be a better solution. For adults however, I can see that imprisonment may serve a purpose, not so much for punishment as for containment. Thankyouvermuch but I don't particularly want to find myself living next to some dude who just raped the little girl across the street...

I say if they are mentally capable to commit an adult type crime, then they should get an adult type scentence, up to and including the death penalty. If they are that far gone, why should we keep people like that around at the cost of $50,000 a year for the next 70 years? Some people are opposed to capital punishment for financial reasons, mainly the cost of the appeals and the cost of running Death Row, but in this case, putting theese kids on death row would be both a financial investment as well as being in the best interest of society.

Oh, and maybe use a real form of capital punishment like hanging or a firing squad instead of that pathetic lethal injection.

It can be very easy to kill someone Sean, perhaps in an accident or fit of rage... The majority of people who kill don't methodically and coldly plan it out. Everyone makes mistakes, and killing a good person just because they let their temper get the best of them one time would make you worse than the murderer imo.

Not forgetting all the wrongfully accused. :/

/me hurumphs and mutters, crossly...

is ANYONE going to reply to my post?

or has everybody got me on "ignore" again?

I think you've said it very well.

Children are not just being born with more tendencies toward evil.
They are the canaries or the front line as you say, and these cases are indicitive of a much deeper problem.

I will not suggest here what I believe those problems to be.
That is completely open to speculation. But I think most people can come up with a couple of ideas.

I agree the bigger issue is that we can all see these things and yet, collectively we condone and continue the trend through inaction.

How does one truly make a difference?

I think Batman has the answer.

*convulses violently* This thread has begun to take on a frightfully Nazi regime! After checking out Vertivert's painfully long post, I would have to say that I for one think that she has hit the nail on the head. Sure, there are kids that have a more violent temperament than others, but ultimately the adults of society are responsible for curbing and directing the behaviour of minors. If a parent neglected to send their 12 year old to school, claiming their child didn't want to go, the onus would fall on the parent rather than the child. If a child is misbehaving at school, they may get a detention, but if it becomes a severe problem, it is the parents that are called in. I think the same applies here. Whilst I am not suggesting that children have no responsibility for checking their actions, I look at the world that they are raised in and I am not at all surprised that they act in such a manner. They are not the ones that have mass produced violent video games, created violent television programs and manufactured toy guns complete with caps. Whilst I am by no means suggesting that anyone who ever participates in the use of any of the above will become a violent murderer, I AM suggesting that perhaps there is some small connection between the constant barrage of violence present in modern society and readily accessible to young, formative minds, and the increasing occurance of violence acted out by children.

There we have my logical argument. Now for my emotional one. For those of you who say we should use capital punishment to rid the world of murderous children... Would you maintain that this is an appropriate form of action if the child in question was Autistic? Sure, being on the Spectrum isn't an excuse, but at the same time, experts in the field are generally intelligent enough to recognise that the needs of a child with Autism are somewhat different to those of a neurotypical child. I for one find it immensly difficult to control my actions and not lash out violently during a meltdown: it is only in the last few years that I have found ways of controlling my most extreme behaviour. Whilst my AS is not an excuse for my behaviour, I have no doubt in my mind that it made it extremely difficult for me in terms of controlling my behaviour during a meltdown. It is a nasty combination of unawareness of others and poor foresight, taking into account that the reason for the meltdown is often caused by the anxiety of an unfamiliar circumstance that is not being suitably explained. Now, I ask you, what should have been done? I was certainly most remorseful for my actions once I calmed down enough to recognise how inappropriate they were. Fortunately I have a very forgiving and understanding family, and somehow they managed to give me loads of 'second' changes. But change the dynamics slightly. Supposing that instead of being a young girl with high functioning Aspergers, I were a grown woman with low functioning Autism? Supposing I was unable to make the cognitive leap that while violence on television is quite alright, violence acted out in real life is inappropriate? With the right lawyer, I could be lot off a charge of murder, because I didn't understand the implications of my actions.

In short, I think the same leeway and provisions that are made for individuals on the Autistic Spectrum need to be made for young children for the same reasons: they do not have the same awareness for the consequences of heir actions that adults have. And for the person who suggested that there would be less childhood violence if there was the threat of lethal injections, and the person who suggested death by firing squad as it is more offputting... would such a threat prevent you from a meltdown? I know it wouldn't stop me, so how can it possibly stop children from immitating inappropriate behaviour?

Vertivert, can I join you in hiding?

What is a NIMBY?

NIMBY = Not In My Back Yard. that is, move the problem somewhere else so i don't have to deal with it.

and phoenixkitten - sorry about the long post, but had to say everything or the message isn't communicated effectively (i, too, loathe scrolling down pages for one post).

i think we're talking about "mainstream" kids here, really, and so the issue of kids with autism, or mental illness, or what might be called "extenuating circumstances", are special cases. as far as i'm aware, though, none of the kids in the cases mentioned were special cases - they were just "mainstream" kids. if i'm wrong, please tell me. (i'm using "mainstream" here instead of "normal", in case i get jumped on, although i suspect someone will jump on me for using "mainstream" anyway. i think you know what i mean, though).

and there's no need to hide, phoenixkitten - you've made a perfectly valid and well-argued point, as far as i'm concerned. to address your point, perhaps education is the key, yet again - i believe that children need "training" (the ones i teach certainly do), especially in things such as self discipline, appropriate behaviour, social issues, and the like. i'm not suggesting that we return to "Victorian Values" (or whatever the tories call it), as beating a kid regularly doesn't have much positive effect. but firm boundaries would be useful. and we have to remember that no-one is TRAINED to be a parent, so perhaps Blair's suggestion of teachng parents how to parent is a reasonable idea after all (even though i shudder to agree with the pillock, he does have a point).

Thanks Vertivert! Whilst I am aware that in this instance the children involved were neurotypical, the parallel I was trying to draw was not that all murderers have emotional/mental/developmental disabilities, but rather that, just like Autistic people may have difficulty recognising the consequences of their actions, so to may neurotypical children. I think there is a lot of similarity between Spectrum people and children: kids are also prone to being gullible and are easily influenced by the external world. I can well believe that even though they may instinctively 'know' that there is something innately wrong with murder, they may be rather mixed up because of all the external messages that suggest otherwise. It is also clear that children display a hinderance in their ability to employ foresight, as demonstrated by the millions of little girls and boys who want to 'grow up and become' princesses and ballerinas or firemen and racing car drivers: in spite of this, there is a distinct lack of adult princesses and not too many fireman either. I am not saying that the adults responsible for the children's upbringing were directly responsible for the children's shortcomings: this is mere speculation. What I AM saying is that I don't feel we are in a position to be giving the death sentance to two 12 year old boys until we stop producing games where the more people you shoot, the more points you earn, or until we can be quite sure that young children won't walk into the loungeroom in the evening to witness adults laughing hysterically at one of the numerous comedic deaths in a Monty Python movie. What is ironic and thus hilarious to adults makes me shudder when I think of what a young child would make of their parents laughing as one of the many characters spontaneously combusts!

absolutely. and i agree with the rest of your post, too - we HAVE to teach EVERYONE (not just children) more discrimination, especially those who are more vulnerable (which is probably a better phrase than "mainstream", and makes more sense - shame i didn't think of it until a minute ago).

*nods* It never ceases to amaze me that whilst you hear stories of children as young as grade one in America getting suspended or expelled for things like pointing chicken wings in a 'gun like manner' and saying 'pow pow' or folding a piece of paper to look like a gun and saying 'I'm gunna kill you' (incidentally during a game of cops and robbers... ) and yet games like Counter-Strike, which are openly terrorist games where you can CHOOSE to be the terrorist (not like fighting the baddies in the computer, you actually ARE the baddies), games that are KNOWN to attract young people in large mobs who get together in LANing cafes to play said games all day (yes folks, there was a case not long ago where a child, I think around 12, died because he spent all his time playing on the computer and would disappear for days on end, not coming home and forgetting to eat because he would get so immersed, which is not to mention the death of another child who believed that they would meet up with the friends from the other side of the world if they killed themselves...). What can I say? Is it really worth it? The annoying thing is that there is no easy solution...

Kids have played with toy guns for a couple centuries now without having any bearing on violent behavior up until recently. I suspect that kids recognize to some extent the seriousness of actually shooting someone and that there's a difference between shootiong a cap gun at your friend and then going to get lunch together and shooting a real gun at them where they won't be coming out to play anymore. Now, you have the video games that desensitize the kids to extremely violent deaths and we have kids that kill for any little offense. I really don't think it's the toy guns. I had toy guns, and even learned to shoot real ones when I was ten and I've never killed anybody or even sent somebody to the hospital.


That is completely inexcusable on the part of the administrators. Hearing about kids getting suspended for saying "that's gay" is another pet peeve.

Do we really have to bring up the violent videogame/movie debate here?
There are ratings on such forms of media for a reason! The shops aren't actually allowed to sell them to kids- its not the video game/movie industry's fault if parents decide to ignore these classification systems and buy adult intended media for their kids without looking at what they're choosing to expose little Johnny to.

I'm heavily against censorship for media- let discerning adults choose what they want to be exposed to, the ratings system is there TO HELP YOU make these choices!

...of course if things are incorrectly classified, then that's another matter entirely...

Dude, I didn't say I was condemning the producers, although in a way I am. I am condemning society, including the parents. I am also highlighting the irony of American polity...