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vandire
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24 Nov 2007, 5:53 pm

spdjeanne wrote:

I don't think it is impossible for a person to both think that their choices are good and also be humble about them. I mean, we can't just avoid making choices.

It isn't impossible, it just seems to be rare. To be honest it's something I have difficulty with myself.

vandire
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24 Nov 2007, 5:55 pm

richardbenson wrote:

well im gonna make a guess here and say that viruses bacteria and atoms are real. and can be scientifically proven

You're completely missing the point. They probably do exist, but the very foundation of science is never to accept anything as proof, just as added strength to a theory. The idea of "scientifically proven" is a laymans simplification, simply because it's too much of a pain to say "it's been scientifically proven that the current most likely working explanation for x is theory y".

spdjeanne
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24 Nov 2007, 5:57 pm

richardbenson wrote:

spdjeanne wrote:

Science doesn't actively prove anything.

science doesnt actively prove anything? well that isnt true

did science actively prove atoms existed? bacteria? viruses?

http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/N ... 0000000000

richardbenson
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24 Nov 2007, 6:01 pm

vandire wrote:

richardbenson wrote:

well im gonna make a guess here and say that viruses bacteria and atoms are real. and can be scientifically proven

You're completely missing the point. They probably do exist, but the very foundation of science is never to accept anything as proof

i think your completely missing the point, that would be true for a theory but once a theory is proven to be true like viruses bacteria and atoms existing i dont think your going to find a scientist that sais they are unproven and dont exist

vandire
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24 Nov 2007, 6:05 pm

richardbenson wrote:

vandire wrote:

richardbenson wrote:

well im gonna make a guess here and say that viruses bacteria and atoms are real. and can be scientifically proven

You're completely missing the point. They probably do exist, but the very foundation of science is never to accept anything as proof

No one is saying they don't exist. What people are saying, and as spdjeanne has nicely provided us a reference for, is that nothing is considered an absolute or "proof" in science. You are confusing having large amounts of correlating results with ultimate proof. They are two seperate things.

Theories are not proven as true. They are accepted as true until new contradicting evidence comes along. Sometimes this is extraordinarily unlikely. Sometimes it is fairly likely. Irrespective, there is no 100% certainty, and there is no nice, easy and cut & dried "proven to be true."

spdjeanne
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24 Nov 2007, 6:08 pm

richardbenson wrote:

ok well lets say this hypothetically happend. lets say they found a scroll somewhere in the desert that said jesus never existed, and he was just some made up figure. and lets say that it is 100 % acurate and can be proven scientifically. do you think people will stop beliveing in jesus and all of his acomplishments? i dont think so

Even if the accuracy of the scroll was near the top of the certainty scale, I doubt it would be completely ignored by all religious (and by that I take you to mean Christian otherwise why use Jesus as an example and not Buddha) people. There would probably be a split just as there is now between Christians who believe in Creationism and those who accept the theory of Evolution. If you didn't generalize so much, you might be able to make a valid point.

richardbenson
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24 Nov 2007, 6:10 pm

vandire wrote:

richardbenson wrote:

vandire wrote:

richardbenson wrote:

well im gonna make a guess here and say that viruses bacteria and atoms are real. and can be scientifically proven

You're completely missing the point. They probably do exist, but the very foundation of science is never to accept anything as proof

What people are saying, and as spdjeanne has nicely provided us a reference for, is that nothing is considered an absolute or "proof" in science.

that isnt true either, i give you a perfect example. polio was erradicted right? if science wasnt so shure about it how did they come up with a vaccine to erradicate it?

vandire
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24 Nov 2007, 6:11 pm

Their best working theory is that it has been eradicated, and their best working theory of the time is what probably did the job.

If you still don't get the point, look up Quantum Uncertainty. And if you *still* can't understand it past that, you either aren't paying any attention, or you never will.

richardbenson
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24 Nov 2007, 6:12 pm

im not going to look up anything. you dont know what your talking about

vandire
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24 Nov 2007, 6:16 pm

richardbenson wrote:

im not going to look up anything. you dont know what your talking about

Why, you're right! Completely forget that no one has agreed with you, and the provided reference disagrees with you, and that you haven't even responded to a single logical point in a vaguely logical way, I just don't know what I'm on about. It's all so simple - why bother trying to learn anything at all, or even exercise your mind with logic when you can just outright dismiss all opposing logic with more random crap that's not relevant?

You're an idiot.

spdjeanne
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24 Nov 2007, 6:18 pm

vandire wrote:

spdjeanne wrote:

I don't think it is impossible for a person to both think that their choices are good and also be humble about them. I mean, we can't just avoid making choices.

It isn't impossible, it just seems to be rare. To be honest it's something I have difficulty with myself.

It is so rare! Unfortunately, I cannot claim to be a member of that rare group either. I think I get more arrogant about my personal choices and beliefs when I make them essential to my identity. It is only then that I start to take arguments against my choices and beliefs personally and get really really defensive.

richardbenson
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24 Nov 2007, 6:21 pm

vandire wrote:

richardbenson wrote:

im not going to look up anything. you dont know what your talking about

yes im an idiot because there are proven truths in science

Last edited by richardbenson on 24 Nov 2007, 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

vandire
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24 Nov 2007, 6:21 pm

spdjeanne wrote:

vandire wrote:

spdjeanne wrote:

I don't think it is impossible for a person to both think that their choices are good and also be humble about them. I mean, we can't just avoid making choices.

It isn't impossible, it just seems to be rare. To be honest it's something I have difficulty with myself.

That sounds about right. The problem is, if you don't consider your personal choices important to your identity then it's hard to have a very strong self image at all.

spdjeanne
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24 Nov 2007, 6:22 pm

vandire wrote:

richardbenson wrote:

im not going to look up anything. you dont know what your talking about

For someone who goes on about people being brainwashed he doesn't seem to be very open minded himself. Nevertheless, idiot is rather harsh don't you think?

vandire
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24 Nov 2007, 6:23 pm

richardbenson wrote:

yes im an idiot because i think there are proven truths in science

That sums it up nicely, yes.

vandire
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24 Nov 2007, 6:24 pm

spdjeanne wrote:

vandire wrote:

richardbenson wrote:

im not going to look up anything. you dont know what your talking about

For someone who goes on about people being brainwashed he doesn't seem to be very open minded himself. Nevertheless, idiot is rather harsh don't you think?

Ah, sorry. It's probably a bit harsh, yeah, but it's kind of a pet peeve of mine when people either can't or wont understand basic scientific principles. It gets me irritated far more easily than it should.

Richard - I apologise.

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