Morality Challenge for Theists.

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gwenevyn
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26 Nov 2007, 12:29 pm

Henry wrote:

I think I do understand your question. So, let me ask you one:

Can you name one act or statement of moral kindness and altruism that could not have been done or said by a theist?

Of course not. But that's not the issue at hand. All of the major world religions hold that they have the key to living a better, more virtuous life. The only comparable thing that atheists claim is that they don't do bad deeds in the name of religion, so it isn't their job to prove something they don't assert.

Of course, the whole issue is pretty much moot since nobody agrees on what qualities and deeds should be considered virtuous.

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monty
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26 Nov 2007, 2:14 pm

Gromit wrote:

jfrmeister wrote:

Now can you answer the corollary... name an act of malevolent evil that could ONLY have been done by a person of religious faith (something an atheist would consider unthinkable).

How many can you name??

9/11, witch burnings, genital mutilation, forcing women to dress in a burka, raping young girls because it's illegal under your religious laws to kill virgins, etc........

The genital mutilation is not religious, it's cultural, having much the same function as the burka. And in Stalin's Soviet Union, the idea of counterrevolutionary had the same function in official ideology as the idea of witch after the reformation or the Nazi's conception of Jews: they were supposed to be guilty of everything, making a handy scapegoat. Only the details differ, the principle is the same.

If you want to argue that the idea of reward in the afterlife makes suicide attacks easier, remember that the attackers consider their acts to be altruistic, and the same belief should make it possible for them to sacrifice their lives for the common good without killing anyone.

I will be surprised if anyone can find something either positive or negative that is only possible for religious believers and is different in principle, not just in the details.

Have to agree with that last sentence. While religion has often served as an excuse for barbarity, it is not a requirement for such cruelty.

Sand
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26 Nov 2007, 2:32 pm

“With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.” Stephen Weinberg

gwenevyn
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26 Nov 2007, 2:38 pm

Sand wrote:

“With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.” Stephen Weinberg

Catchy, but I don't agree. All it takes is a mistaken impression, a bit of zeal over a political movement, a little hysteria, a disagreement over what "goodness" consists of, or whether it exists at all... and so on.

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Ragtime
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26 Nov 2007, 2:43 pm

Sand wrote:

“With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.” Stephen Weinberg

Actually, there are no good people. (At least according to Jesus, and several biblical writers.) Jesus wasn't particularly fond of religious people, if you've read any of His teachings. They are people who convince themselves that they're good, and thus, become all the more blind to their own internal evil and its external consequences when that evil nature is not recognized and reined-in.

I'm a bad person who is forgiven, and given a will not to be bad. I've found lots of evil ways to make my material, earthly life easier, but I've been given a major conscience, so I avoid those things. And I SO would do them if I didn't feel deep within my soul that they're wrong.

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Last edited by Ragtime on 26 Nov 2007, 3:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Postperson
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26 Nov 2007, 3:02 pm

jfrmeister wrote:

Henry wrote:

This question is, in my opinion, not a valid one, at least not if you're trying to prove that atheists are more moral than theists. Many theists have commited acts of moral kindness and/or altruism. So, the question is, not whether these acts could have been commited by an atheist, but whether, in that specific situation, that specific person would have commited the act if they were not a theist. The answer to that question is going to be different in every case.

You clearly misunderstood the question.

Name something good that a theist has done that an atheist couldn't (I have yet to hear a legitimate answer)

Name something bad that theist has done that an atheist couldn't (I've named a few and people have named even more)

For those of you not smart enough to figure this one out, the point I'm trying to make here is this:

The main purpose of religion isn't to get bad people to do good things, (even though it occasionally does) the main purpose of religion is to get good people to do bad things that they wouldn't ordinarily do, by telling them that it's god's will that they do it.

so, does it follow then, that the purpose of atheism is to get good people to do bad things? by telling them there is no god?

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26 Nov 2007, 3:47 pm

Postperson wrote:

jfrmeister wrote:

Henry wrote:

so, does it follow then, that the purpose of atheism is to get good people to do bad things? by telling them there is no god?

Atheism isn't a dogma.... it doesn't ask anyone to do anything.

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jfrmeister
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26 Nov 2007, 3:51 pm

Henry wrote:

jfrmeister wrote:

Henry wrote:

I think I do understand your question. So, let me ask you one:

Can you name one act or statement of moral kindness and altruism that could not have been done or said by a theist?

I never said that there was nothing good that can't be doen by a theist, although they have a hard time letting others believe in whatever gods they choose. Wasn't blasphemy a crime punishable by death in your country up untill the mid 19th century?? It was also against the law to be Swedish and NOT be Lutheran.

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jfrmeister
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26 Nov 2007, 3:55 pm

gwenevyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

“With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.” Stephen Weinberg

Behavior that its "good or "bad" has a tendancy to be universal. Read the book "The Science of Good and Evil" by Dr. Michael Shermer for a more in depth discussion.

You'll find few cultures that say it's OK to steal,lie, cheat and murder.

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Postperson
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26 Nov 2007, 3:55 pm

jfrmeister wrote:

Atheism isn't a dogma.... it doesn't ask anyone to do anything.

Well in that case, there is also no standard by which they can be critiqued, since they hold to no central values. convenient eh?

but, really, i don't accept that atheism isn't a dogma. is it an ideology?

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26 Nov 2007, 3:56 pm

Postperson wrote:

jfrmeister wrote:

Atheism isn't a dogma.... it doesn't ask anyone to do anything.

No, it's a simple lack of belief in the supernatural

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gwenevyn
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26 Nov 2007, 4:06 pm

jfrmeister wrote:

But you'll find a lot of cultures in which such behavior is the de facto standard, even if the official laws and openly stated norms indicate otherwise. If we judge by words, then much of the world agrees on what is right. If we judge by acts, things seem a bit murkier.

Does the book cover that, too? It looks interesting. Thanks for the recommendation.

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richardbenson
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26 Nov 2007, 4:33 pm

the christians in america only want to fight about god and try to convert everything. i like the christians of etheopia, those are some bad asses and represent there faith beautifully.

ive seen some atheists that are just as bad as american christians. the trick is to be somewhere in the middle, wich isnt hard to do

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26 Nov 2007, 4:37 pm

Sand wrote:

“With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.

Yes, I agree with that, when I was a kid I used to think that all people outside the denomination I was, was bad, and even thought about non-believers as rebellious, later I realised is nothing like that.

Quote:

But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.” Stephen Weinberg

Not necessarily, but it happens sometimes, very likely it used to be like that a long ago, but as things have changed now, currently it depends on the culture, and fundamentalism and fanatism, which it ends up being damaging, instead of something good.

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Postperson
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26 Nov 2007, 4:49 pm

maybe that should read pseudoreligion, that weinberg quote.

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26 Nov 2007, 5:27 pm

non believers and believers in God tend to judge a religion(belief system, defined by its laws) for the religion members(human beings claiming to be from those belief systems)...

the negative acts "religious" people do, is what atheists focus on to discredit the belief system.
the same way "religious" people focus on the negative side of atheists to discredit their belief.

both of them are blind believers. believing in what they believe just to be the opposite of an other side.
this competitive side belongs to the animal side of humans that has been decreasing due to evolution of mankind, and we must concentrate in working with the other side of our belief to achieve the good things in this world.(without violating eachother's laws, and this is possible)

focus on what we have in common not in what we differ.

the challenge mentioned in this thread is worthless because you will have millions of different answers.
so if you are a blind believer go on and rip on the opposite side, wasting your time in issues with no goals.

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