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guess what! there is something more then the universe!

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Fnord
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29 Sep 2008, 12:51 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Fnord wrote:
There is but one Universe, and Science is its religion.

How do you know this to be true?

Because Science is the measured study of the Universe, while the only 'evidence' presented for the existance of a multiverse has been through speculative fiction and esoteric mathematics. Just because a lot of people believe what they read in a comic book, it does not make it real.

And screw that Anselmean quote that goes, "If it can be conceived at all - it must exist." Anselm died almost a thousand years ago, and his greatest claims to fame were that as the Archbishop of Caterbury, he opposed the Crusades; and that he tried unsuccessfully to merge Christianity with Aristotleanism.

It takes more than a few words mumbled by a dead churchie to prove the existance of something that no one has ever observed.


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Last edited by Fnord on 29 Sep 2008, 1:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Sand
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29 Sep 2008, 1:01 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Sand wrote:
I have never seen my a**hole. I assume it is there but it is relatively unknown. I do not worship it.


All you have to do to see yer a**hole is take your clothes off and then get a hand-held mirror, bend over and hold the mirror right behind your ass! :lol: :lol: :lol:


There are some mysteries in life that retain their magnificence by remaining mysteries. I don't watch television either.



ToadOfSteel
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29 Sep 2008, 1:14 pm

Sand wrote:
I have never seen my a**hole. I assume it is there but it is relatively unknown. I do not worship it.


I've never seen my a**hole either, but I can feel it when my crap passes through...

Observing doesn't necessarily mean seeing.



Sand
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29 Sep 2008, 1:21 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

I've never seen my a**hole either, but I can feel it when my crap passes through...

Observing doesn't necessarily mean seeing.


Perhaps not, but it requires some faith. Since you are religious, I assume you feel comfortable with both your a**hole and God. I am acquainted with the theory of digestion and human waste disposal but, as with the theory of evolution, I can only draw a logical conclusion about how things work and assume it has nothing to do with dark matter or teleportation.



Haliphron
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29 Sep 2008, 1:22 pm

Sand wrote:
ToadOfSteel wrote:

I've never seen my a**hole either, but I can feel it when my crap passes through...

Observing doesn't necessarily mean seeing.


Perhaps not, but it requires some faith. Since you are religious, I assume you feel comfortable with both your a**hole and God. I am acquainted with the theory of digestion and human waste disposal but, as with the theory of evolution, I can only draw a logical conclusion about how things work and assume it has nothing to do with dark matter.



In order for relgion to be compelling and inspire faith, it has to be non-falsifiable. And what could possible be more so than something which is both unknown AND unknowable? :D



Sand
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29 Sep 2008, 1:29 pm

Haliphron wrote:

In order for relgion to be compelling and inspire faith, it has to be non-falsifiable. And what could possible be more so than something which is both unknown AND unknowable? :D


If something is unknown and unknowable it merely inspires doubt in me. But, of course, I seem to be in the minority in a gullible world. Nevertheless, although I have never done a thorough investigation, there is a modicum more of reality in my mind about my a**hole than God.



carturo222
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29 Sep 2008, 1:42 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:
What can I say? I believe that God exists. Cosmologists believe Dark Matter & Energy exists. Both cannot be observed directly, but the effects of their work can be seen in the universe.

PS: I also believe that Dark Matter exists, I just want people who say that the burden of proof rests solely on religion and never on science to kindly shut up for once.


1) Dark Matter is a hypothesis. Some observable effects point to its existence, which is yet to be demonstrated. On the other hand, no facts point to any god, and no tenable hypothesis has been postulated on the subject. God is not only not proved; it lacks a formal definition for testing.

2) Science has its own burden of proof as well; scientists have no problem with that. It's only that, as for offering proofs, the score is more or less like this: Science one zillion, Religion zero.



Eggman
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29 Sep 2008, 3:52 pm

Fnord wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Fnord wrote:
There is but one Universe, and Science is its religion.

How do you know this to be true?

Because Science is the measured study of the Universe, while the only 'evidence' presented for the existance of a multiverse has been through speculative fiction and esoteric mathematics. Just because a lot of people believe what they read in a comic book, it does not make it real.

And screw that Anselmean quote that goes, "If it can be conceived at all - it must exist." Anselm died almost a thousand years ago, and his greatest claims to fame were that as the Archbishop of Caterbury, he opposed the Crusades; and that he tried unsuccessfully to merge Christianity with Aristotleanism.

It takes more than a few words mumbled by a dead churchie to prove the existance of something that no one has ever observed.


If universe==all there is yes
If universe is defined by the area set up by the epensision of the big bang, or the area defined by a common set o law of phyics, then maybey not. There are theries thet have many such univereses.



Haliphron
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29 Sep 2008, 4:07 pm

Sand wrote:
Haliphron wrote:

In order for relgion to be compelling and inspire faith, it has to be non-falsifiable. And what could possible be more so than something which is both unknown AND unknowable? :D


If something is unknown and unknowable it merely inspires doubt in me. But, of course, I seem to be in the minority in a gullible world. Nevertheless, although I have never done a thorough investigation, there is a modicum more of reality in my mind about my a**hole than God.


God? I was not & Am NOT suggesting in the least that such dark matter/dark energy has supernatural origin :!:
I was saying that since it is unknown it inspires awe and mystical evocations. There is nothing more exciting and more beautiful than the mysterious...



Fnord
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29 Sep 2008, 4:27 pm

Eggman wrote:
There are theries thet have many such univereses.

No ... the concept of a Multiverse is not a theory, it is merely an idea that is beyond proof. This is because if a thing can be measured, then it is part of the universe; but that if it can not, then it is merely an idea or a concept. Sorta like Heaven and Hell...


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Psimulus
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29 Sep 2008, 7:43 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Psimulus wrote:
Their is nothing more than the Universe. The Universe consists of all that is.



I beg your pardon but there is NO way that such a thing can be known right now! Dont forget that absence of
evidence is NOT evidence of absence! The fact remains that *We* DONT KNOW what's beyond the Unverse and if the Universe is all their is. However, the article spoke of the Observable Universe and that there is evidence that much of the Universe is not observable by means of EMR. I suspect that our Universe has higher dimension to it which would explain why much of it is not evident to us.

Psimulus wrote:
Its a matter of language, physics, and simple logic. The Universe consists of verses. A verse can be considered to be a "parallel" to other verses.The set as a whole is the Universe. I was once disillusioned in how I defined or distinguished what these terms represent as well. If an interaction is occuring then It seems that this other component has physical attributes and as such is connected. If it were not connected then we would be unaware of its presence. Their is nothing "outside" our Universe. There is no outside in the sense that you are considering. We inhabit a verse which is contained within the body of the Universe. Other verses are also resident. Also, I do not find any solace in being disagreeable. I find it difficult to permit the media to continuate the myth of more than one Universe when if one just reflects on the data available it is very simple for almost anyone to deduce that what I am attempting to relay is absolutely correct.


You are confusing philosophy with physics my friend! :wink:


I am not confusing philosophy with physics. The disciplines have been fused together by an act of will(con) long before/after I arrived. Nothing is beyond the Universe for the Universe is all that is. The term is self definitive. I believe that such a thing can be known right now for I believe that I know with absolute certainty that it is infinite. What is true for me may not be true for you from our own perceptions. Language is a code. This code resides within the computational substrate of the Universe. It can be, and likely has been, reverse engineered. All code is based on ratiometric proportions. If the Universe at a time did not exist, there would be nothing to create it. Action/Reaction.



Haliphron
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29 Sep 2008, 7:56 pm

Fnord wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Fnord wrote:
There is but one Universe, and Science is its religion.

How do you know this to be true?

Because Science is the measured study of the Universe, while the only 'evidence' presented for the existance of a multiverse has been through speculative fiction and esoteric mathematics. Just because a lot of people believe what they read in a comic book, it does not make it real.

And screw that Anselmean quote that goes, "If it can be conceived at all - it must exist." Anselm died almost a thousand years ago, and his greatest claims to fame were that as the Archbishop of Caterbury, he opposed the Crusades; and that he tried unsuccessfully to merge Christianity with Aristotleanism.

It takes more than a few words mumbled by a dead churchie to prove the existance of something that no one has ever observed.


I am NOT making a claim of a multiverse, but neither you nor ANYONE else knows where and exactly how the Universe came into being. But its quite clear that since causality seems to hold true-at least on the classical scale-that the Universe(and Time as well)did indeed have a beginning. NO ONE has any tangible evidence of what lies beyond the Universe, but astronomic observations strongly suggest that the Universe is NOT infinite; although it has no defined boundaries but rather closes in on itself the way an n-sphere does.



Fnord
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29 Sep 2008, 8:02 pm

Haliphron wrote:
...NO ONE has any tangible evidence of what lies beyond the Universe...

There is no measurable 'beyond' to the Universe. Even if we live inside an 'n-sphere' (which is more speculation) there is no real, measurable evidence to support the idea that there is anything else.

Let's leave the speculative 'science' fiction to the professionals in Hollywood.


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Haliphron
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29 Sep 2008, 8:13 pm

Fnord wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
...NO ONE has any tangible evidence of what lies beyond the Universe...

There is no measurable 'beyond' to the Universe. Even if we live inside an 'n-sphere' (which is more speculation) there is no real, measurable evidence to support the idea that there is anything else.

Let's leave the speculative 'science' fiction to the professionals in Hollywood.


That doesnt change the fact that absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absense! For example, a set(with cardinality aleph_1) is NOT closed just because it is not open. At this point speculation is ALL we can do with regards to what lies beyond the universe.



Fnord
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29 Sep 2008, 8:28 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
...NO ONE has any tangible evidence of what lies beyond the Universe...

There is no measurable 'beyond' to the Universe. Even if we live inside an 'n-sphere' (which is more speculation) there is no real, measurable evidence to support the idea that there is anything else. Let's leave the speculative 'science' fiction to the professionals in Hollywood.

That doesnt change the fact that absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absense!

It is at least equally heinous to assert that an idea must be valid simply because there can exist no evidence to refute it. The burden of proof for the existance of a 'Multiverse' lies squarely upon those who make the assertion of such a state.

Show me your 'Multiverse', and I will believe. Show me where the Universe ends and the 'Otherverse' begins, and I will believe. Take me to a divergeant time-line, and I will believe. Open the gates to Heaven and Hell just long enough for me to get a peak inside, and I will believe.

I'm open to the possibility of a Multiverse, but you'll have to provide me with a clear demonstration to prove it's existence to me.


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Psimulus
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29 Sep 2008, 8:39 pm

Though not an absolute proof by any means, try taking a different route to somewhere and then observe how it alters and effects every other procession. The more energy invested the more divergent your reality will become. Eventually, once you are more open to these possibilities, things will become more manifest. It is like tuning in or resonating with possibilities.