We have not learnt from the mistakes of 1930's nationalism

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ruveyn
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01 Feb 2009, 1:02 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

Strange thing to say seeing as we have never had Marxism. In 1923 Stalin decide that capitalism was becoming too stable in Europe and the chance of continuing a Marxist revolution was unlikely, this was the major split when the Russian Communist Party turned away from Marxism and instead focused upon socialism within national boundaries, Trotsky fought this ideology to the day he died. It was this ideology that destroyed so many workers revolts. One of these betrayals was against the British working class during the general strike of 1926, facilitated by the unions and the Labour party

So if you want to have an informed debate about Marxism please do not use the labour party, or other leftist radical groups as an example of why Marxism does not work

Excuses, excuses. Socialism is a failure. When businesses are not permitted to be privately owned they fall into the hands of political thugs who (of course) act in the name of The Peepul.

ruveyn

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01 Feb 2009, 1:08 am

this kind of thing must be a real worry for the faithless.

DentArthurDent
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01 Feb 2009, 1:20 am

ruveyn wrote:

Excuses, excuses. Socialism is a failure. When businesses are not permitted to be privately owned they fall into the hands of political thugs who (of course) act in the name of The Peepul.

Thats right learn nothing from history, just believe the propaganda you have been spoon fed, and ignore the truth. Fool

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blackelk
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01 Feb 2009, 1:34 am

The world is much more interconnected than it was in the 30s. War between major powers is bad for business these days.

DentArthurDent
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01 Feb 2009, 1:37 am

Postperson wrote:

this kind of thing must be a real worry for the faithless.

Since when has god protected anybody from world events :roll:

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01 Feb 2009, 1:37 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

Orwell wrote:

^So you're a Trotskyist?

No I am a Marxist as was Leon Trotsky

Well, yes, but there are quite a few disparate branches of Marxism. Are you a Trotskyist Marxist of some persuasion? A Marxist-Leninist?

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blackelk
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01 Feb 2009, 1:41 am

Trotsky was a patriot. Stabbed by an icepick. I read his book, Revolution Betrayed. I am a hardcore capitalist but am very interested in socialist thought.

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01 Feb 2009, 1:54 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

Postperson wrote:

this kind of thing must be a real worry for the faithless.

Since when has god protected anybody from world events :roll:

Since when was that god's job? :lol:

DentArthurDent
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01 Feb 2009, 3:00 am

Orwell wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

Orwell wrote:

^So you're a Trotskyist?

No I am a Marxist as was Leon Trotsky

Well, yes, but there are quite a few disparate branches of Marxism. Are you a Trotskyist Marxist of some persuasion? A Marxist-Leninist?

Again both were Marxist, Lenin prefered Trotsky as his successor. Stalin did a bit of historical revision regarding Lenin's views on socialism in one country vs permanent revolution. He spoke out against the former although Stalin tried to rewrite history to suggest he supported it.

Trotsky supported Lenin but after his death fought against Stalins ideology. So I don't see a difference between Lenin and Trotsky they were both Marxist, Stalin was not.

I suppose that because I associate with the Socialist Equality Party which is a member of the International Committee of the Fourth International you will call me a Trotskyist, I feel this is erroneous because he was an orthodox Marxist

techstepgenr8tion
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01 Feb 2009, 3:17 am

I don't know about nationalism but right now from the look of things we definitely haven't learned from 1930's nationalization. Whenever the Great Depression was starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel - big government spending built more tunnel.

Switch Lil Wayne out for Obama in this picture and the title's fairly accurate:

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01 Feb 2009, 7:03 pm

So, Dent, you support the idea of a worldwide communist revolution, right? But only in nations that have already passed through the capitalist stage of development. Out of curiosity (I am not very intimately knowledgeable of Marxist thought) why is it that he believed capitalism was necessary before socialism could be established?

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blackelk
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01 Feb 2009, 7:10 pm

Orwell wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism

Everything is slowing turning into its opposite. Life to death, hot to cold, light to dark, etc.. Communism is no different. Capitalism to communism. It is a natural evolution. Only through the flaws of capitalism could communism emerge. It is a neccessary precursor

Most communists are phonies. If they were true marxists they would want the most capitalist government to exist possible. That would speed up the change to communism. They should want to expose capitalism in all its flawed glory. Capitalism is one of those monsters of darkness, to which the light of truth is death. Only by seeing honest and unregulated capitalism can people come to realize that communism is superior. Liberals and statists actually preserve capitalism, because they try to work within it. A real Marxist should let it take its course.

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01 Feb 2009, 7:21 pm

blackelk wrote:

Most communists are phonies. If they were true marxists they would want the most capitalist government to exist possible. That would speed up the change to communism. They should want to expose capitalism in all its flawed glory. Capitalism is one of those monsters of darkness, to which the light of truth is death. Only by seeing honest and unregulated capitalism can people come to realize that communism is superior. Liberals and statists actually preserve capitalism, because they try to work within it. A real Marxist should let it take its course.

Well, it's not as though Marx was the only communist theorist ever. There have been a number of proponents of the ideal of evolutionary socialism and a gradualist approach.

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blackelk
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01 Feb 2009, 7:27 pm

Orwell wrote:

blackelk wrote:

Well, it's not as though Marx was the only communist theorist ever. There have been a number of proponents of the ideal of evolutionary socialism and a gradualist approach.

No but Marx was the most contemporary who tweaked his ideas for the industrial revolution and the current world order.
Industrializion required so much more be added to communist thought.

ruveyn
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01 Feb 2009, 8:01 pm

blackelk wrote:

Everything is slowing turning into its opposite. Life to death, hot to cold, light to dark, etc.. Communism is no different. Capitalism to communism. It is a natural evolution. Only through the flaws of capitalism could communism emerge. It is a neccessary precursor

Humans are natural born propertarians. Me, Mine, I comes to our tongues with no effort. Communism is contrary to human nature. That is why the State proposed by Plato in -The Republic- will not come about or if it does come about it will not last. Reconcile yourself to not ever having a true blue communist system. The most we will have in that direction is a somewhat inhibited (by regulation) market based system. And it follows from fact. People are not the same. We don't all have the same wants and needs. And some of us are more active than others. A system designed to cut us down to mediocrity will fail.

ruveyn

blackelk
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01 Feb 2009, 8:13 pm

I am not a communist. I agree that man is probably a gaming animal and competition is in his nature. He could probably be conditioned to be otherwise though. Man didnt evolve to live under government or civilization either, but conditioning eventually brought him around. We are lashed and prodded through life anyway. I dont see why we couldnt be lashed and prodded to be communists too.

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