Scientists Debunk themselves into a corner

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The Nazi state built a huge industrial scale mass murder apparatus and weren't nearly as successful as they had hoped.

You make it sound like the Yamnaya had mass population replacement as goal in the same way the Nazis made the Holocaust a goal, and that sounds like the Hollywood dumbed down version of whatever actually occurred. It's yet another example of you gravitating to the most dramatic explanation possible, rather than ever considering if a less dramatic one might be just as strong.

Fundamentally both German fascists and Yamnaya shared a need to grow/expand. Lebensraum or living space. And no, while the Nazis failed in their objective, the Yamnaya succeeded far beyond their wildest dreams. Indo-european language and culture has spread globally. Do you think that that happened where the locals welcomed their new overlords with "flowers and kisses"? no, it happened brutally at the end of a sword blade or the barrel of a gun or canon turret.

there are people who romanticise this historical era where Yamnaya chariot riders spread out all the way from Siberia and India and in the east to the far shores of the British islands in the west. Please go read the Indian Rigveda which is written account from oral sources about the earliest incursions of Indo-european nomads who celebrate war and destroying forts and villages of the "mleccha" (a derogatory term for the native Indians) in the name of Indra the war god. Sound familiar? the Greeks and Romans laid waste and pillaged in the name of their war god Aries/Mars and Anglo-Saxons and Vikings also laid waste places they conquered in the name of thor and Odin. All the same buddy.

when there aren't cameras or news channels to document what happened and you aren't answerable to anyone except your war god then what's to stop from replacing the indigenous folk (keep the women) with your own progeny to access new land for grazing cattle, fishing and growing crops?

the proof is in the DNA, you may not be comfortable with what happened but it's our past. You can choose to accept it or create some fairy tale about "noble conquerors".

From https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-47938188:

This possible explanation certainly makes more sense even if it is less dramatic.

On the New Scientist article linked earlier, most of the article is unavailable without a subscription and so it is difficult to figure out what the article actually says.

^^^Relevant parts:
Towards the end of the Neolithic, in about 2,450BC, the descendants of the first farmers were themselves almost entirely replaced when a new population - called the Bell Beaker people - migrated from mainland Europe. So Britain saw two extreme genetic shifts in the space of a few thousand years.

^^^ So this happened everywhere in Europe with the arrival of Indo-european speakers.
the problem is the following interpretation:
"It's difficult to see whether the two [genetic shifts] could have anything in common - they're two very different kinds of change. There's speculation that they're to some extent population collapses. But the reasons suggested for those two collapses are different, so it could just be coincidence."

why beat around the bush? "population collapse" is a euphemism for what was violent replacement.

That makes no sense at all. It looks like you are just looking for reasons to believe whatever you want to believe.

There can be a multitude of reasons for population collapse. Violent replacement is one of them, but probably far from the most likely reason. So why are you so intent on blaming it on another group of people?

there are many contributing factors for population collapse. I am suggesting violence (which was normal in ancient times) was a major contributing factor given the relative speed of the spread. the early Indo-European burials were all made up of war chariots, a multitude of weapons, including bows, swords. axes and daggers. In addition to war horses the Indo-Europeans were the first to use war dogs. even the women were buried with an assortment of weapons. Compare that to the Indus Valley which supported a population in the millions, not one weapon buried anywhere. No wonder they were low hanging fruit for the Indo-European war bands.

Imagine Cheddar man and his wife sitting on Saulsbury plain next to Stonehenge looking upon a horde of Indo-Europeans travelling in war bands looking like something out of a Mad-Max movie. the poor farming folk never stood a chance.

Last edited by cyberdora on 07 Jun 2025, 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

A rampage of murder that lasted a thousand years or more?

Really?

^^^ One village at a time felt the cold blade of the onslaught.

I imagine Cheddar man singing this for his brothers as the Indo-europeans descended upon them near Stonehenge



we remember you Cheddar man!

There is no proof that things happened in the manner you're claiming. Zero. You're inventing tall tales based off of very little information and expecting me to believe them despite a lack of evidence.

There's proof that only a small number of males are the ancestors of all current males, not that an industrial scale slaughter on the scale of the Holocaust occurred.

You're misinterpreting information and hoping to rely on being condescending in place of actual proof. You've got multiple threads that are based entirely on a mix of scientific illiteracy and misinterpretation and a long track record of offering deeply misinformed opinions.

If you really think you can make a conclusive evidence for the position you're claiming, you should submit it to a scientific journal and allow experts to evaluate your ideas. Of course, that won't happen because they don't withstand even the mildest of scrutiny.



Maybe this explains things, you're drunk.

According to Nature
A significant population introduced high levels of steppe-related ancestry (Yamnaya) and was associated with the replacement of approximately 90% of Britain’s gene pool (Anatolian farmer) within a few hundred years, continuing the east-to-west expansion that had brought steppe-related ancestry into central and northern Europe over the previous centuries.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25738

During the Bronze Age in Europe, Western Steppe Herder (WSH) populations migrated into the region, leading to a significant replacement of existing paternal DNA lineages, particularly in Western Europe. These migrations involved the dominance of WSH and related Eastern Hunter Gatherer (EHG) lineages, such as haplogroups R1b and R1a, replacing the Early European Farmer (EEF) paternal DNA. This replacement suggests a substantial population shift, potentially involving both males and females from the steppe.

What is important is the local ancestry (paleolithic hunter gatherer and Anatolian farmer Paternal DNA and female Mitochondrial DNA) that was widespread from 2200 to 1600 BP essentially disappears by 1250 BP, giving rise to the Yamnaya DNA dominated Corded ware culture whose pottery and weapons form the basis of Germanic culture in northwest Europe (Goths, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings) that persisted through to the end of the viking age.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 607v2.full

that's high impact current peer reviewed evidence, is that good enough?

the level of replacement of Anatolian farmer DNA in southern Europe was less dramatic. Anatolian farmer DNA in Southern Europe ranges from over 80% in Sardinians and Basque to 50-60% in Italy, Greece, and Spain. As with India and Iran, the number of Indo-european speakers was not high enough to replace the indigenous population even though their cultural dominance replaced the indigenous culture, language and religion.

In modern times you see this Latin America, where Spanish/European DNA varies where settler colonist replacement was inversely proportional to the level of genocide and proportional influx of Spanish and European settlers.

the purpose of a discussion forum is varied, but discussing new ideas should not be met with antagonism. Archaeologists themselves debate archaic population collapse. why is scientific debate so problematic for you? In this modern era due to the sensitive nature of the topic archaeologists tend to favour climate, famine and disease as more convenient explanations for population collapse in Europe. But there is clear evidence most of modern Europe is formed through several millennia of military conquest, militarised empires that arose from war bands. If this culture of war and conquest followed by global colonist settler expansion explains modern history, is it really so shocking this model also explains the way Indo-Europeans spread out 5000 years ago and replaced indigenous Europeans.

A few hundred years isn't nearly the same as what the Nazis did, as you were previously comparing things to, but please shift those goalposts all you like, it's not impacting your credibility at all.

umm isn't this stalking?

You mean, pointing out the things you voluntarily post here when your behaviour suggests impairment?

How exactly is that stalking? My brother in Christ, you're the one who posted it here. If you don't want people on here pointing out that maybe you're being an idiot because you're drunk, don't tell us that you're drunk.

the Nazis, had planes and vehicles so could mobilise men and supplies faster than nomads on horses. I am also talking about mindset in terms of acquiring good land at the expense of the locals. And no, I'm not picking on Indo-Europeans, the east Asian population expansion in Asia, Pacific and the Americas also involved population replacement. Seems like a universal human nature.

Last edited by cyberdora on 07 Jun 2025, 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dunno, just creepy...