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Should eradicating autism be a hate crime?

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Should eradicating Austism be considered a hate crime?
yes 51%  51%  [ 65 ]
no 19%  19%  [ 24 ]
maybe, given the right circumstances 23%  23%  [ 30 ]
I don't know 7%  7%  [ 9 ]
Total votes : 128

Pepperfire
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02 Apr 2008, 1:05 pm

LeKiwi wrote:
Let's just leave this for the vaccines thread, eh? There's already a biggie going on there with plenty of arguments for and against; let's not let it all spill over into other threads dedicated to other topics and questions. :)


I agree. :D


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02 Apr 2008, 2:36 pm

MrMark wrote:
The only thing that's been established is that there is no direct causal relationship. That does not mean no one has ever harmed by vaccines. It also does not mean that the discussion is over.


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02 Apr 2008, 5:18 pm

Pepperfire wrote:
MrMark wrote:
The only thing that's been established is that there is no direct causal relationship. That does not mean no one has ever harmed by vaccines. It also does not mean that the discussion is over. It may, however, mean that you no longer wish to participate in the discussion.

Your continued efforts to shut people up will not be tolerated. We support a wide range of diverse perspectives here. If your not prepared to tolerate points of view that are different from your own, well, tolerance and diversity are two of our primary vaules here, so you should be asking yourself if you really want to participate on a forum that supports the expression of opinions about the issue that are different from your own (as well as your own opinions about the issue) and one that requires from it's members so much tolerance of different points of view.


I don't believe that TLPG is in essence trying to "shut anyone up". If you or LeKiwi or anyone else for that matter were to actually bring in facts that showed that there was room for "tolerance" or "diversity" on the topic, I am certain that TLPG, like the rest of us, would welcome it. Supporting the expression of bullsh*t is not on, in any forum. EVER. Any opinion that even remotely suggests that there is ANY connection between VACCINES and AUTISM is full of SH*T. It has been proven time and again that there is NO connection. How much fact do you need or is blindly subscribing to the Jenny McCarthy school of "I'm a Mom and Moms know" an acceptable "opinion"?

Bullsh*t is bullsh*t, it doesn't matter where it comes from.

If it's an opinion based on fact... bring it on. Otherwise, it's just bullsh*t in light of the facts that have been presented ad nauseum.

-- ugh... here we go again.


Thank you, Pepperfire!! Spot on!

Mark, the issue that was being shot down was specific to thiomersal, not the general concept. But - and this is the last I'll mention this on this thread - vaccines are not the problem. How they are used is the problem - if there is one.

OK?



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02 Apr 2008, 5:43 pm

LeKiwi wrote:

The number one cause of death in the United States today, and in the top five of most developed nations, is iatrogenic - as in, caused by 'real medicine' or 'real medical' 'mistakes'.


Incorrect.

It's actually genetic heart disease. Medical mistakes aren't even in the top 30 in that category.


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LeKiwi
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02 Apr 2008, 6:04 pm

beau99 wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:

The number one cause of death in the United States today, and in the top five of most developed nations, is iatrogenic - as in, caused by 'real medicine' or 'real medical' 'mistakes'.


Incorrect.

It's actually genetic heart disease. Medical mistakes aren't even in the top 30 in that category.



Iatrogenic death passed heart disease a few months ago to reach the number one spot.


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Pepperfire
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02 Apr 2008, 6:06 pm

beau99 wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:

The number one cause of death in the United States today, and in the top five of most developed nations, is iatrogenic - as in, caused by 'real medicine' or 'real medical' 'mistakes'.


Incorrect.

It's actually genetic heart disease. Medical mistakes aren't even in the top 30 in that category.


And in Canada, it's heart disease and stroke (the numbers I've seen don't differentiate).

Although according to this website: http://www.halexandria.org/dward048.htm

Quote:
It is worth noting that the February 2004 issue of the Idaho Observer referenced the Death by Medicine report, and noted that "The Nutritional Institute of America (NIA) recently announced its research findings that iatrogenic (doctor-induced) disease has replaced heart disease as the #1 killer of Americans." The Idaho Observer went on to note that "The report indicated that the numbers could be much worse. A study of two hospitals found that nurses intercepted 86 percent of medication errors before they reached patients. The observer then provided a link to the complete report: http://www.nutritioninstituteofamerica. ... ByMedicine which a few months later had disappeared from the net. Clearly Corporate Politics was not enjoying the expose and Pharmacidal had struck yet another blow against the people.


It's not true... but it's citable (sort of).


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02 Apr 2008, 6:11 pm

I saw an article on it recently in Nexus, which you may or may not consider a reliable source (though as it's an 'indy' publication with different contributers each issue it depends entirely on who the author was - in this case I can't remember, but it was the most recent edition - Feb 08). I also saw a short piece touching on it a few issues ago in New Scientist. So apparently it's true - iatrogenic is now higher than heart disease. Which is a pretty terrifying thought.


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02 Apr 2008, 6:36 pm

TLPG wrote:
Pepperfire wrote:
MrMark wrote:
The only thing that's been established is that there is no direct causal relationship. That does not mean no one has ever harmed by vaccines. It also does not mean that the discussion is over. It may, however, mean that you no longer wish to participate in the discussion.

Your continued efforts to shut people up will not be tolerated. We support a wide range of diverse perspectives here. If your not prepared to tolerate points of view that are different from your own, well, tolerance and diversity are two of our primary vaules here, so you should be asking yourself if you really want to participate on a forum that supports the expression of opinions about the issue that are different from your own (as well as your own opinions about the issue) and one that requires from it's members so much tolerance of different points of view.


I don't believe that TLPG is in essence trying to "shut anyone up". If you or LeKiwi or anyone else for that matter were to actually bring in facts that showed that there was room for "tolerance" or "diversity" on the topic, I am certain that TLPG, like the rest of us, would welcome it. Supporting the expression of bullsh*t is not on, in any forum. EVER. Any opinion that even remotely suggests that there is ANY connection between VACCINES and AUTISM is full of SH*T. It has been proven time and again that there is NO connection. How much fact do you need or is blindly subscribing to the Jenny McCarthy school of "I'm a Mom and Moms know" an acceptable "opinion"?

Bullsh*t is bullsh*t, it doesn't matter where it comes from.

If it's an opinion based on fact... bring it on. Otherwise, it's just bullsh*t in light of the facts that have been presented ad nauseum.

-- ugh... here we go again.


Thank you, Pepperfire!! Spot on!

Mark, the issue that was being shot down was specific to thiomersal, not the general concept. But - and this is the last I'll mention this on this thread - vaccines are not the problem. How they are used is the problem - if there is one.

OK?

My problem is your disparaging characterizations of other members or their views, such as "dangerous."


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Pepperfire
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02 Apr 2008, 6:50 pm

LeKiwi wrote:
I saw an article on it recently in Nexus, which you may or may not consider a reliable source (though as it's an 'indy' publication with different contributers each issue it depends entirely on who the author was - in this case I can't remember, but it was the most recent edition - Feb 08). I also saw a short piece touching on it a few issues ago in New Scientist. So apparently it's true - iatrogenic is now higher than heart disease. Which is a pretty terrifying thought.


Unless it's coming from a reliable source, I don't consider it reliable... One of the hazards of being me. :D

Got a truly scientific link I can go by... everything I've seen is either from isogenics or some other "wellness" company with some sort of commercial stake in the information.

According to my government... it's heart disease and stroke. I think they'd know if that changed.


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02 Apr 2008, 7:14 pm

LeKiwi wrote:
I saw an article on it recently in Nexus, which you may or may not consider a reliable source

I wouldn't trust alternative news sources with my life.


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02 Apr 2008, 7:16 pm

It was only recently (like the last few months) that it happened as far as I'm aware, so they simply might not have updated their info?? I'll have a look for that story and see who the author was - usually their articles are written by PhD's (well, the people who hold PhD's... I've never seen a piece of paper writer something...), with the occasional researcher or specialised journalist in there too.

I've found a copy of the article I was thinking of - it's not on the magazine's website, but I've found a site the author maintains and voila, looks like he's put it up there instead!! So here it is:

http://www.health-science-spirit.com/me ... sease.html

Biography of the author grabbed from yet another site:

Walter Last combines the training and work experience of Research Chemist Biochemist and Toxicologist with that of Practicing Nutritionist and Natural Therapist.
He was born and grew up in Germany and has held positions in medical institutions at the Universities of Greifswald, Cologne and Munich, working in research and toxicological investigations.
He was Chief Forensic Chemist at Cologne and worked at Bio-Science Laboratories in Los Angeles.
In 1970 he settled in New Zealand and, dissatisfied with drug-based medicine, practiced as a Natural Therapist.
He has lived in Queensland since 1981 and has investigated and experimented with a wide range of natural therapies to improve the effectiveness of natural medicine in treating serious and medically incurable diseases.
Walter Last is the author of “Heal Yourself”, “Healing Foods” and “The Natural Way To Heal - 65 Ways to Create Superior Health”, and is the main contributor to the “Self Help Cancer Cure” book.
His latest books are the "Heal Yourself" Series.
His website is at http://www.health-science-spirit.com/


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Pepperfire
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02 Apr 2008, 7:46 pm

LeKiwi wrote:
It was only recently (like the last few months) that it happened as far as I'm aware, so they simply might not have updated their info?? I'll have a look for that story and see who the author was - usually their articles are written by PhD's (well, the people who hold PhD's... I've never seen a piece of paper writer something...), with the occasional researcher or specialised journalist in there too.

I've found a copy of the article I was thinking of - it's not on the magazine's website, but I've found a site the author maintains and voila, looks like he's put it up there instead!! So here it is:

http://www.health-science-spirit.com/me ... sease.html

Biography of the author grabbed from yet another site:

Walter Last combines the training and work experience of Research Chemist Biochemist and Toxicologist with that of Practicing Nutritionist and Natural Therapist.
He was born and grew up in Germany and has held positions in medical institutions at the Universities of Greifswald, Cologne and Munich, working in research and toxicological investigations.
He was Chief Forensic Chemist at Cologne and worked at Bio-Science Laboratories in Los Angeles.
In 1970 he settled in New Zealand and, dissatisfied with drug-based medicine, practiced as a Natural Therapist.
He has lived in Queensland since 1981 and has investigated and experimented with a wide range of natural therapies to improve the effectiveness of natural medicine in treating serious and medically incurable diseases.
Walter Last is the author of “Heal Yourself”, “Healing Foods” and “The Natural Way To Heal - 65 Ways to Create Superior Health”, and is the main contributor to the “Self Help Cancer Cure” book.
His latest books are the "Heal Yourself" Series.
His website is at http://www.health-science-spirit.com/


LeKiwi, my friend, does real science carry any weight for you? You've got my brains rattling from shaking my head here.

I'm out.


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03 Apr 2008, 12:33 am

MrMark wrote:
TLPG wrote:
MrMark wrote:
Talking about vaccines and a possible connection to autism is not trolling.


There is no connection between the two - that's been well and truly established. So contradicting that established fact is trolling in my book - for what it's worth (added so I don't look like a back seat mod).

The only thing that's been established is that there is no direct causal relationship. That does not mean no one has ever harmed by vaccines. It also does not mean that the discussion is over. It may, however, mean that you no longer wish to participate in the discussion.

Your continued efforts to shut people up will not be tolerated. We support a wide range of diverse perspectives here. If your not prepared to tolerate points of view that are different from your own, well, tolerance and diversity are two of our primary vaules here, so you should be asking yourself if you really want to participate on a forum that supports the expression of opinions about the issue that are different from your own (as well as your own opinions about the issue) and one that requires from it's members so much tolerance of different points of view.


Thank you, Mr. Mark


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03 Apr 2008, 12:34 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
I do consider it to be a hate crime.


What are your reasons?


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morning_after
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03 Apr 2008, 12:45 am

Pepperfire wrote:
MrMark wrote:
TLPG wrote:
MrMark wrote:
Talking about vaccines and a possible connection to autism is not trolling.


There is no connection between the two - that's been well and truly established. So contradicting that established fact is trolling in my book - for what it's worth (added so I don't look like a back seat mod).

The only thing that's been established is that there is no direct causal relationship. That does not mean no one has ever harmed by vaccines. It also does not mean that the discussion is over. It may, however, mean that you no longer wish to participate in the discussion.

Your continued efforts to shut people up will not be tolerated. We support a wide range of diverse perspectives here. If your not prepared to tolerate points of view that are different from your own, well, tolerance and diversity are two of our primary vaules here, so you should be asking yourself if you really want to participate on a forum that supports the expression of opinions about the issue that are different from your own (as well as your own opinions about the issue) and one that requires from it's members so much tolerance of different points of view.


I don't believe that TLPG is in essence trying to "shut anyone up". If you or LeKiwi or anyone else for that matter were to actually bring in facts that showed that there was room for "tolerance" or "diversity" on the topic, I am certain that TLPG, like the rest of us, would welcome it. Supporting the expression of bullsh*t is not on, in any forum. EVER. Any opinion that even remotely suggests that there is ANY connection between VACCINES and AUTISM is full of SH*T. It has been proven time and again that there is NO connection. How much fact do you need or is blindly subscribing to the Jenny McCarthy school of "I'm a Mom and Moms know" an acceptable "opinion"?

Bullsh*t is bullsh*t, it doesn't matter where it comes from.

If it's an opinion based on fact... bring it on. Otherwise, it's just bullsh*t in light of the facts that have been presented ad nauseum.

-- ugh... here we go again.


I don't think that was Mr. Mark's point, pepper.

I suspect that what Mr. Mark was trying to say is that this is supposed to be a community of tolerance of all views, and it extends to beliefs that are not based in fact.

I for example, could say that I created the sky myself. While it's absurd, I don't exactly cause anyone harm by saying that, even if it is despite proof that I didn't.

People believe in bs, but they always have and unless God himself comes and changes that, everyone is going to believe some bs.


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03 Apr 2008, 12:52 am

LeKiwi wrote:
It was only recently (like the last few months) that it happened as far as I'm aware, so they simply might not have updated their info?? I'll have a look for that story and see who the author was - usually their articles are written by PhD's (well, the people who hold PhD's... I've never seen a piece of paper writer something...), with the occasional researcher or specialised journalist in there too.

I've found a copy of the article I was thinking of - it's not on the magazine's website, but I've found a site the author maintains and voila, looks like he's put it up there instead!! So here it is:

http://www.health-science-spirit.com/me ... sease.html

Biography of the author grabbed from yet another site:

Walter Last combines the training and work experience of Research Chemist Biochemist and Toxicologist with that of Practicing Nutritionist and Natural Therapist.
He was born and grew up in Germany and has held positions in medical institutions at the Universities of Greifswald, Cologne and Munich, working in research and toxicological investigations.
He was Chief Forensic Chemist at Cologne and worked at Bio-Science Laboratories in Los Angeles.
In 1970 he settled in New Zealand and, dissatisfied with drug-based medicine, practiced as a Natural Therapist.
He has lived in Queensland since 1981 and has investigated and experimented with a wide range of natural therapies to improve the effectiveness of natural medicine in treating serious and medically incurable diseases.
Walter Last is the author of “Heal Yourself”, “Healing Foods” and “The Natural Way To Heal - 65 Ways to Create Superior Health”, and is the main contributor to the “Self Help Cancer Cure” book.
His latest books are the "Heal Yourself" Series.
His website is at http://www.health-science-spirit.com/


You might have to excuse me here, but I am personally very sceptical of self-help/ heal thyself type stuff

I understand a lot of it is misleading.


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