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DiabloDave363
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15 Oct 2008, 8:47 pm

*sighs*

i agree with wat ur saying, but we should not be tearing apart one's religion PERIOD! it really offends me. and of wat ive read, half the s**t ur saying is bull
to say ur religion is any better than the next is stupid. its all how the people take it in. they take it and make it their own, for all religions.


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twoshots
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15 Oct 2008, 8:57 pm

Khan_Sama wrote:
Christianity is a pagan (ie, soft-polytheistic) religion, in practice, although not in theory.

Considering that the word pagan entered the English language as a term for referring to non-Christians who practiced the old religions of Europe, i.e. it derived its meaning from the contrast between Christianity and other religions, calling Christianity pagan is at least a little silly, not even going into that I think the whole "Christianity isn't really monotheistic" debate ranges from semantical to asinine.


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15 Oct 2008, 9:10 pm

DiabloDave363 wrote:
*sighs*

i agree with wat ur saying, but we should not be tearing apart one's religion PERIOD! it really offends me. and of wat ive read, half the sh** ur saying is bull
to say ur religion is any better than the next is stupid. its all how the people take it in. they take it and make it their own, for all religions.

Why not tear apart someone's religion if you actually can? Beliefs aren't sacred and shouldn't be treated as such.



Haliphron
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15 Oct 2008, 9:52 pm

twoshots wrote:
Khan_Sama wrote:
Christianity is a pagan (ie, soft-polytheistic) religion, in practice, although not in theory.

Considering that the word pagan entered the English language as a term for referring to non-Christians who practiced the old religions of Europe, i.e. it derived its meaning from the contrast between Christianity and other religions, calling Christianity pagan is at least a little silly, not even going into that I think the whole "Christianity isn't really monotheistic" debate ranges from semantical to asinine.


I dont think so twoshots. Pagan is used colloquially to refer to polytheism and christianity certainly DOES fit the category of covert polytheism because in fact there are 3 seperate people which are unified into one entity. One of those, God the Father comes from the jewish sole deity YHVH. The other is a MAN, known as Jesus Christ and then there's the Holy Spirit. So there you have it, 3 (good)Gods unified into one entity and one evil God(sataniel) who is apparently indivisible. Suppose I took Shiva, Vishnu, and Kali and unified the 3 as one single divine entity? Would that not be paganism??



twoshots
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15 Oct 2008, 10:17 pm

Haliphron wrote:
twoshots wrote:
Khan_Sama wrote:
Christianity is a pagan (ie, soft-polytheistic) religion, in practice, although not in theory.

Considering that the word pagan entered the English language as a term for referring to non-Christians who practiced the old religions of Europe, i.e. it derived its meaning from the contrast between Christianity and other religions, calling Christianity pagan is at least a little silly, not even going into that I think the whole "Christianity isn't really monotheistic" debate ranges from semantical to asinine.


I dont think so twoshots. Pagan is used colloquially to refer to polytheism and christianity certainly DOES fit the category of covert polytheism because in fact there are 3 seperate people which are unified into one entity.

Except that while these are three people, they are one God. The trinity holds that they are not distinct wills, only separate manifestations of a single divinity.
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One of those, God the Father comes from the jewish sole deity YHVH. The other is a MAN, known as Jesus Christ

Jesus is not a MAN, Jesus is held to have a human nature and a divine nature, and to have existed "uncreated" along with the other two.
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and then there's the Holy Spirit. So there you have it, 3 (good)Gods unified into one entity and one evil God(sataniel) who is apparently indivisible. Suppose I took Shiva, Vishnu, and Kali and unified the 3 as one single divine entity? Would that not be paganism??

That depends on how they were combined. Since the beginning of Trinitarianism, IIRC, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are considered only one God. This is a central belief in Trinitarian Christianity; the wills of the trinity are one, and they are of one inseparable essence. This is completely different from Zeus saying, "Yo b*****s! I own yo asses so u do what I say" to the other Gods as he did in the Iliad, because the ancient Greeks lacked the notion of a Platonic monadic divinity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity#One_God


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Haliphron
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15 Oct 2008, 11:14 pm

Jesus IS a Man, well, he's more like a divine cosmic superhuman. You could say, God in human form. Dont forget twoshots that a Trinity is a threesome and to suggest that these three "manifestations" are a single entity is more or less a contradiction. But most of all, its an violation of the 1st commandment of the Torah. Gods are Not sets! You cant just unify 3 Gods and make them into 1! If you divide (a)God into multiple parts or "manifestations"/"aspects" than you have created multiple Gods which cannot be reunified. The Tanakh(which the Torah is part) is very clear that Gods Uniqueness and Unity mutually imply one another.



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16 Oct 2008, 9:11 am

Khan_Sama wrote:
Christianity is a pagan (ie, soft-polytheistic) religion, in practice, although not in theory.


Pagan by whose definition? Muslims?

Well, what can I say?



monty
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16 Oct 2008, 9:23 am

Khan_Sama wrote:
Christianity is a pagan (ie, soft-polytheistic) religion, in practice, although not in theory.


Christianity is syncretic - it has absorbed beliefs and practices from other religions over time. Most religions are syncretic, not 'pure.'



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16 Oct 2008, 9:32 am

I think that is true, but Christianity has thoroughly digested all the syncretic bits. It is not an obvious mish-mash of other religion/elements/cultures.



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16 Oct 2008, 9:43 am

monty wrote:
Khan_Sama wrote:
Christianity is a pagan (ie, soft-polytheistic) religion, in practice, although not in theory.


Christianity is syncretic - it has absorbed beliefs and practices from other religions over time. Most religions are syncretic, not 'pure.'


The whole idea of a 'pure' religion is a sectarian myth. It implies that humans supposedly occupy different realities according to which faiths they belong to. If there is such a thing as a God and spiritual progress, then it is a universal thing that may be discovered or uncovered in all kinds of ways. Trying to limit people's freedom of discovering thruth by speaking of 'pure' or 'unpure' paths or religions is a narrowminded approach blocking human progress and welfare.



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16 Oct 2008, 9:46 am

Daran wrote:
monty wrote:
Khan_Sama wrote:
Christianity is a pagan (ie, soft-polytheistic) religion, in practice, although not in theory.


Christianity is syncretic - it has absorbed beliefs and practices from other religions over time. Most religions are syncretic, not 'pure.'


The whole idea of a 'pure' religion is a sectarian myth. It implies that humans supposedly occupy different realities according to which faiths they belong to. If there is such a thing as a God and spiritual progress, then it is a universal thing that may be discovered or uncovered in all kinds of ways. Trying to limit people's freedom of discovering thruth by speaking of 'pure' or 'unpure' paths or religions is a narrowminded approach blocking human progress and welfare.


I agree. I so agree.



slowmutant
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16 Oct 2008, 9:47 am

For something to be a "pure" religion, it must remain inside the the mind of the person who invented. And that person must never speak of it to anyone as long as he lives. That religion must be the secret he dies with.



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16 Oct 2008, 9:48 am

Khan_Sama wrote:
Christianity is a pagan (ie, soft-polytheistic) religion, in practice, although not in theory.

Such a claim, though common among Muslims, is blatantly false. It also betrays a weak understanding of the English language- the word "Pagan" in its broadest sense means "any religion other than Christianity" which would therefore include Islam. There is no legitimate definition of paganism that could encompass Christianity because the term Pagan originated to make a distinction between Christianity and other religions. It is like saying that Jews are Gentiles. :?

And no, Christians are not polytheists. I don't know what you've been taught by your Imam, but all the Muslims I've met repeat (almost word-for-word) the same fallacious, ill-informed arguments against Christianity while ignoring the fact that their own religion can not possibly provide an adequate answer about Jesus and what we know about him historically without concocting elaborate conspiracy theories about the early Church.


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16 Oct 2008, 10:45 am

Orwell wrote:
Khan_Sama wrote:
Christianity is a pagan (ie, soft-polytheistic) religion, in practice, although not in theory.

Such a claim, though common among Muslims, is blatantly false. It also betrays a weak understanding of the English language- the word "Pagan" in its broadest sense means "any religion other than Christianity" which would therefore include Islam. There is no legitimate definition of paganism that could encompass Christianity because the term Pagan originated to make a distinction between Christianity and other religions. It is like saying that Jews are Gentiles. :?

And no, Christians are not polytheists. I don't know what you've been taught by your Imam, but all the Muslims I've met repeat (almost word-for-word) the same fallacious, ill-informed arguments against Christianity while ignoring the fact that their own religion can not possibly provide an adequate answer about Jesus and what we know about him historically without concocting elaborate conspiracy theories about the early Church.


Have you ever wondered WHY Jews kept their traditional religious views and refused to accept Christ as the messiah? Because he claimed he was the son of God! By asserting to be a personification of the devine he was blaspheming the 1st commandment in the view of the orthodox rabbi's. Dont you see Orwell? Judaism is founded of the uniqueness AND the unity of God; as well as the firm belief that God CANNOT be personified-which is exactly what polytheistic religons do. One God with three "aspects"(more like distinct parts) is contradictory if you believe in the 1st commandment. The Tanakh say absolutely nothing about the "Holy Trinity", that is a concept that the Christians made up!



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16 Oct 2008, 10:51 am

Haliphron wrote:
Have you ever wondered WHY Jews kept their traditional religious views and refused to accept Christ as the messiah? Because he claimed he was the son of God! By asserting to be a personification of the devine he was blaspheming the 1st commandment in the view of the orthodox rabbi's. Dont you see Orwell? Judaism is founded of the uniqueness AND the unity of God; as well as the firm belief that God CANNOT be personified-which is exactly what polytheistic religons do.

Emmanuel- God is with us, God incarnate. What Jews believe does not have to restrict what Christians can accept.

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The Tanakh say absolutely nothing about the "Holy Trinity", that is a concept that the Christians made up!

That Christians and Jews theologically disagree is of no relevance- Judaism and Christianity are separate religions, you should hardly be surprised that they have different beliefs on a number of issues.


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16 Oct 2008, 10:53 am

Orwell wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Have you ever wondered WHY Jews kept their traditional religious views and refused to accept Christ as the messiah? Because he claimed he was the son of God! By asserting to be a personification of the devine he was blaspheming the 1st commandment in the view of the orthodox rabbi's. Dont you see Orwell? Judaism is founded of the uniqueness AND the unity of God; as well as the firm belief that God CANNOT be personified-which is exactly what polytheistic religons do.

Emmanuel- God is with us, God incarnate. What Jews believe does not have to restrict what Christians can accept.

Quote:
The Tanakh say absolutely nothing about the "Holy Trinity", that is a concept that the Christians made up!

That Christians and Jews theologically disagree is of no relevance- Judaism and Christianity are separate religions, you should hardly be surprised that they have different beliefs on a number of issues.


As are Christianity and Islam. My point is that the Islamic idea of God is modelled precisely on the Jewish view of God whereas christianities ideas about God are most definitely NOT. Islam and Judaism are the only truly monotheistic (major)religions.