Criticize Islam!

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I'm not going to bother trying to explain the Trinity on a message board. My point still stands: Christianity is NOT a pagan religion by any stretch of the imagination, and anyone who says otherwise simply does not understand the words they are using.

I think the trinity was incorporated from Greek mysticism.

And I'm neutral on the Trinity because I am a Christian Unitarian.

Is the Tanakh realy supposed to expound on Christian doctrine? I wasn't aware that our world was so Jew-centered.

Nope. I am a Muslim.





Ok, you're right. I shall use the term "polytheistic" from now on. I will continue to express my view that Christianity is a soft-polytheistic faith. I won't argue about it, it's pointless.



We just disagree that we was anything more than a normal human being.



Yes, sectarianism is present in every religion. The only difference is the amount of sectarianism. Many people will comment on the role of the black stone (which to us, btw, is just a stone which has a special role on the day of judgement), the hajj pilgrimage, etc, but our view is simple - every religion was initially like Islam prior to corruption. As much as our polytheistic criticism of Christianity is valid, non-Muslim comparision to polytheistic faiths is also valid. While Christians usually base allegations of polytheistic influences as "rubbish" and "mere coincidence", we accept that these are Islamic elements which were not isolated prior to corruption of the message. There are of course, few things we will accept as non-Islamic syncretism, such as designs of mosques, the moon and crescent symbol, and a few other minor details. However, these factors do not lead to corruption of the faith.

This is my personal view. I will not argue about it, for arguments are pointless.



No. Jews, as well as many atheists and agnostics.

The logical coherency of the Trinity is open to debate, but the core assertion is essentially monotheistic.

Except that nowhere in classic Trinitarianism are they separate "gods".

Well, no, I don't see how that follows at all. They are still essentially manifestations of a single underlying divinity, so the core essentials of monotheism as such are satisfied because the world is subject to one and only one divine will and entity. Now, I am unsure what the christian position is on the trinity, but it certainly does not require any great stretch to make the trinity one God (for example, we might say that the separateness of the Trinity is the product of the human mind rather than a natural property of God). The Christian notion of a supreme deity is still entirely monadic, and this is in direct contrast to classic polytheism in which the world is subject to no particular underlying will or order but just the balance of the quibbling of a variety of not necessarily aligned wills. This is in my opinion the key innovation of monotheism, something a little less Jewish and a little more Platonic. Because the Trinity are one, there is no balance, no disagreement, no difference and no communication. They are not separate things. Quibbling about the characterization of the divine neglects the fact that the important theological innovation of monotheism is still present.

If popular Christianity ever violates monotheism, in my opinion, it is not of the trinity, but rather more the ditheistic opposition of God to the Devil.


I would like it if you could. I'm completely out of my depth here.

Tell me, if you have MORE THAN 1 separate manifestation of a single entity, WHY STOP WITH ONLY 3????
Why not 4, or 5, or 9? Or countably infinitely many?? I hope you see my point. Uniqueness and Unity mutually imply one another. That is the true achievement of monotheism: the notion of God as a single, INDIVISIBLE entity that CANNOT be personified in any tangible form. Christianity personifies God as a man who once lived on earth and whom they believe is still alive today. MANY other polytheistic faiths do the same thing, like the Hari Krishnas. There are some hindu's who believe ostensibly in one God but that God has (countably)infinitely many manifestations so they will accept Any deity as one of them.Since WHEN is there no communication between the 3 "manifestations" of the Christian God? There is the so-called "Lords Prayer" to God the Father and then there are prayers to Jesus Christ. Christianity is Very Inconsistent, Im suprised at your unwillingness to acknowledge this fact. Your claim that there is "no balance" between the 3 is correct: God the Father is the dominant one and Jesus Christ is the subordinate, and the "Holy Spirit" is the hermetic one.

Last edited by Haliphron on 17 Oct 2008, 12:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

Bastardized monotheism perhaps.


well, I think that would be up to debate about establishing how much level of paganism is there in Christianity, historically speaking, as according to few scholars, some parts of Christianity have their roots from different ancient pagan religions, not only about the Trinity, but about other stuff as well, and that seem to make sense, seeing that from a secular perspective mostly, even though, Jehova's Witnesses, to say an example, believe the concept of Trinity as a pagan influence.

Hell, why stop there.

Not really.

I disagree. It doesn't really add a lot philosophically that god can't be personified unless you're going for all out deism. Which other monotheisms don't.

On the one hand, I have heard people characterize some polytheisms as quasi monotheistic. I don't think there is a strict black and white dichotomy between monotheism and polytheism. On the other hand, I think the exclusion of potential competing notions of truth is an important aspect of monotheisms which Christianity satisfies as well.

Frankly, I'm getting bored here. The christian position on the essential inseperability of the trinity and its essential unity is pretty explicit and I don't think I am in a position to be trying to explain it when there are sufficient resources out there for one to research it oneself.

^Oh I *bet* you're getting "bored" there twoshots , you really dont want to concede because that would make me victorious in this debate *cynical laughter*. Anyhow, if the three are inseperable than WHY bother with 3 manifestations? Why not just One, Unified, Indivisible God which cannot be personified? Thats how Jews and Muslims view God. But this thread is about Islam after all, and not christianity . Islam is by far one of the MOST consistent and most (aggressively)rational of all the worlds major religions. I dont know if you've read the Quran but I have and unlike the bible its very concrete and very straightfoward. I wonder if Islams directness and lack of inconsistency is what makes it so intimidating to the west................

No, it's the terrorism, actually.

You are missing the point. In Christianity, there is only 1 (as in One Single) manifestation and that is Christ Jesus. God the Father is just a name for God and not a manifestation as such. The Holy Spirit is also just a name for the same God working through people so also no manifestation. So in Christianity there is only one single God and for christians He can be worshipped through His manifestation as Lord Christ Jesus.

Now there are certain hindus who worship this same single God through Lord Krishna and yet others who worship Him through His manifestation as Lord Shiva.
Philosophically these folks know perfectly well that God is beyond the realm of the senses and certainly beyond incarnation into a human body and yet they believe that God manifested Himself in history in order to save humanity from downfall. How God does this is a mystery to them as the ways of God cannot be known to man.

But certain muslims say that they understand the ways of God better and God has told them that God should never be worshipped as a manifestation. They suppress and even murder people who try to do so. They say that God should only be bowed to in his unmanifest form, as an abstraction, as an entity that can never be known or loved.
I would say to these muslims: do you think that God is so small-minded that He would care in which way He is worshipped or addressed or do you think that God is more interested in how much His children are devoted to Him, how close they come to Him?

You do realize that Judaism preaches the SAME thing. That God is both unified and unique and cannot be depicted or represented through ANY earthly manifestation-particularly through a human being. Judaism was the worlds First and Foremost example of True Monotheism. Christianity attempts to integrate paganism into monotheism because western culture is fundamentally pagan. Furthermore, christians claim vociferously that their faith is the successor religion to judaism and that jews have fallen out of favor with God for not accepting Jesus as a manifestation of the Divine.

Judaism recognized that God is one and that it is better to worship that One in His entirety rather than through different gods who represent the different forces in the physical world.

It is an improvement to realize that behind nature, behind the physical and mental worlds there is a Supreme God or Consciousness that controls everyone and everything.

It is however another thing to radically and dogmatically forbid any practices that use representations of that One God. It isn't possible to relate to God without some kind of personal imagination of what that God is like. Where you draw the line is a matter of personal taste and choice.

Christ himself was a Jew. There's no getting around that.

I dont deny that slowmutant, but christianity is certainly a break with the jewish traditional view of G-d and how G-d is represented.