NVLD - bad, misleading, inadequate name

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NVLD and AS diagnosis here. I think NVLD is an accurate diagnosistic criteria, actually much more accurate and more able to actually be used in treatment (either by a psychiatrist or by self treatment/adaptation.) NVLD is a neurological diagnosis you can pretty easily determine if you have or don't have via IQ tests or testing, whereas Aspergers is a psychological diagnosis. IE, in my case with my NVLD, it was determined mainly via IQ testing, very high verbal IQ and very low nonverbal IQ all across the board, ie, math, everything to do visual spatial. With Aspergers, the diagnosis is much harder to do really, as it's not based off of any concrete litmus, just your own observations and other's observations, and then it even goes further with certain cultural differences, etc. With Aspergers for most people, many psychologists will have different opinions from eachother, one psychologist may say you have it, another may say you just have anxiety/etc.

I think "Aspergers" has many different causes and is a manifestation of certain neurological problems, but there's no one "Aspergers virus" or "Aspergers gene" or anything like that, that causes "Aspergers." Take anxiety for example. Anxiety almost always has some sort of causative agent, or underlying other medical or psychological things accompanying it (for example, depression, bi-polar disorder.) So if you have someone that is bipolar and also has anxiety, does he not have anxiety just because he's bipolar? No. So someone with NVLD can have Aspergers as their NVLD is manifesting with Asperger's symptoms. Thus they have NVLD as a neurological disorder, with Aspergers as a comorbid psychological abnormality, the same way bipolar can have anxiety as a comorbid. And not everyone with Aspergers has NVLD or vice versa, the same with bipolar and anxiety. I'd also like to note many people with Aspergers have an almost complete opposite neurological profile to NVLD and have strong visual spatial thinking.

Aspergers is a broad label of symptoms. I think the easiest comparison is influenza. When you get sniffles, a fever, coughing, maybe throwing up, headache, etc you think "I have the flu." But you probably don't. You probably have some other virus that's not influenza, the CDC says of all the samples submitted to them to test for flu, only 14% come back with any sort of influenza virus at all, and even during flu epidemics, the maximum figure for people who actually have influenza is only 60-70%. So the technical term used is "influenza like illness" because the treatment strategy and the symptoms are the same, even if the specific viral cause is different. So I think this comparison is apt for "autism" or "Aspergers." People should also take note of the fact that even brain injuries or strokes can make someone manifest with "Asperger" or NVLD like symptoms like loss of empathy or social inappropriateness, but it's not called Aspergers in them as it's not from birth.

NVLD appears to be often associated with psychological, socio-emotional problems. The term NVLD has too broad "meaning" for me. Lack of thinking about eye contact or "one-sided" conversations about "obsessive" interests are signs of PDD/AS(D) for me. Not all people with NLD have to present social problems. For me the term "social NLD" is not acceptable. NLD should not mean something "autistic-like", psychiatric problem. NLD may be a symptom of PDD for me.

Social communication disorders (also nonverbal communication impairments) should not be named as NLD symptoms, even if they are caused by visual-spatial deficits. NLD should be just learning disorder, not problem in social area by itself. Problems with social competence and emotional maturity should not be classified as "specific developmental disorders". They are more pervasive problems.

Definition of NLD should be "purged" from "PDDic" symptoms to leave a learning, cognitive developmental problem which does not have to mean social and emotional problems.

This is a text written by a person who wrote about having "obsessions" (I do not want to suggest that the person has ASD, but for me obsessiveness is NOT a sign or symptom of "(nonverbal) learning disability"):

Now that you have a bit of background about NLD, I’m going to start covering some NLD-related stuff in my life!

First off, OBSESSIONS. This is the aspect of NLD that affects me the most these days. In the Asperger’s/Autism community, they’re also referred to as “special interests”. My obsessions are quite all-consuming, and at their height, can disrupt my daily life significantly. I have several long-term obsessions, and some in the past that only lasted a couple of weeks or months.

My obsessions first started to appear when I was around 3. It started with dinosaurs and Disney princesses, as well as the band The Wallflowers (well, ONE song by The Wallflowers, played on repeat for hours and hours). They started to pick up until I hit my first major long-term obsession when I was 6: whales. My fascination with whales was completely all-consuming; I read and marked up text books (yes, at age 6), memorized fact after fact, went on tons of whale watches, and basically learned about whales 24/7. And then told everyone about what I learned 24/7. Over the years this evolved into a desire to work with whales as a career.

My second major long-term obsession hit in 4th grade, when I discovered The Beatles and John Lennon. If anything, this was even more intense than my whale obsession. I listened to nothing but The Beatles for almost 4 years, and even then, would only deviate from them for a couple of months before I inevitably returned to them. I have a bookshelf full of Beatles books, a drawer full of Beatles shirts, Beatles posters wallpapering my room, as well as every CD, every DVD, and a mind-blowing amount of other merchandise. It’s pretty hard to describe the intensity of my obsession. It faded a bit for 2 years in 8th-9th grades, but came back with a vengeance in 10th.

Third: Ancient Rome, Latin, and Augustus. I started taking Latin in 6th grade, but my obsession kicked into high gear after an amazing Latin class in 8th grade. It continued to pick up speed after that, and then fine-grain-focused into an intense fascination with the emperor Augustus after a research project in 9th grade. This evolved into a decision to major in Classics in college, and make a career out of it afterward. I talk about Latin and Rome almost ALL of the time, and am known for being a Latin dork. I consider this to be more than just an obsession now, however… It’s a huge part of my identity.

Finally, Coldplay. Oooh, Coldplay. Coldplay first came to my attention a long time ago, but my obsession with them didn’t officially start until 10th grade. I can’t really describe my Coldplay obsession, except for COMPLETELY all-consuming. I haven’t listened to anything but Coldplay since 10th grade, I saw them in concert 5 times in 1 year (once in front row), I follow all Coldplay news religiously, and connect anything and everything to Coldplay. It’s almost ridiculous how obsessed I am with them.

Other primary obsessions: Monty Python, House, PG Wodehouse, Harry Potter, England in general, photography.

My current obsession is Doctor Who, which is quickly going from a regular primary obsession to a long-term one.

Now, I’m going to cut this off and write a separate post describing how it feels to have these obsessions, and how they affect my life. It’s something that I’ve been dealing with a lot, especially in the past few months. So stay tuned! (I’m trapped in a massive double-blizzard, so I have nothing better to do than write.)

https://onefootonthespectrum.wordpress. ... ions-pt-1/

It is "acoric" for me. AS and "NLD" appear to be different and distinct sorts of "acoria" (but not only ones). "Obsessiveness" is acoric, not "NLDic" stuff (not every acoria has to be related wth "obsessiveness" for me). "Obsessiveness" may give some profits.

I have a hope that this link would be not broken: https://onefootonthespectrum.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/obsessions-pt-1/

Another post from this page: https://onefootonthespectrum.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/what-is-nld/

And the quotes from the conversation below the topic:

I have never been diagnosed with NLD, but I believe I have it.
I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, attention defecit disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, separation anxiety disorder, learning disorder not otherwised specified with difficulties with visual motor integration, executive dysfunction, anorexia and various other anxiety disorders and learning disabilities and stuff.

They did not diagnose me with NLD and I don’t have all the symptoms but I have some. I’m really bad at math, bad at driving, I have trouble telling left from right, I have bad handwriting, had trouble learning to tie my shoes, get lost all the time and circle the same areas over and over, have trouble remembering faces and confuse faces, trip on things, have horrible organization, bad at science, did very bad in school, was bad at arts and crafts, have trouble holding needles, bad sense of direction, performance iq was 70, verbal was 125, basically have visual-spatial weaknesses and motor skill weaknesses. I have trouble writing essays and can go on and on and never really get to the point or know what to write and how to write it and what order to write it in. I am very disorganized and have trouble visualizing things.

However, there are many symptoms I don’t have. I don’t take things literally, I understand sarcasm and humor, I don’t talk in a monotone, I have a normal voice, I never had any speech problems or problems with intonation, I can read nonverbal communication, I can read body language and facial expressions and tone of voice and I can understand the hidden meanings of conversations. I also am very sensitive and have a filter and don’t say mean or inappropriate things. I also have a good imagination and am creative. I also did very badly in school and I never had an area I was smart in, I was never a genius and was never smart, I actually did a lot better socially than academically. I also have more normal interests and hobbies. I like soap operas and teen dramas.

However, I have a lot of NLD traits and believe I have NLD. I found out about NLD a few months ago and it was like the missing peice of a puzzle, it all made sense why certain things were difficult. It’s so cool you have this blog, I was hoping you could help made an nld forum or messageboard. It’s so cool you started this blog, maybe we can chat sometime about nld and try starting a forum for the nld community.

I just looked at one of my old IEP records and saw it had interesting information. On my last IEP record from five years ago, my verbal IQ had dropped to 103 and my performance IQ was 73. I was in the low average intelligence range. My strengths were in social judgment, vocabulary and verbal abstract reasoning. My weaknesses were in visual alterness to detail, fine eye motor speed, accuracy and visual sequential organization. It said a had a strength in reading comprehension and a weakness in reading processing. My weaknesses in math were processing speed and problem solving. I had weaknesses in listening and oral expression.

All the teachers wrote that I had troubles in organization, distractibility, being late and losing objects.

It said that I had weaknesses in distractibility, organization and written expression.

It also talked about my anxiety.

My verbal IQ is much lower than the typical NLD, but reading my old IEP seemed to imply an ADD/NLD type combo without saying it. However, it said I had adequeate lfie skills with my cognitive abilities. I also had below average intelligence, which was not common for NLD. It also said I had good social judgement and good eye contact, which is not typical NLD and I had a weakness in oral expression.

However, my fine motor and visual perceptual disabilities and math disabilities fit right in with NLD.

I was given an ADD and Learning Disorder NOS and generalized anxiety disorder diagnosis.

Anyway, just thought I’d share this since I ran into some of my old evaluations.

I’ve changed a lot since then, I’m 22 now and love relationships and going out and teen dramas and soap operas. I appear ‘normal’. My main weaknesses are in processing. I also was diagnosed with anorexia and other types of anxiety disorders.

The person who wrote it what is above appears to have purer NLD than the author of the blog, who wrote about obsessions.

This post about sensory overloads also suggests that the author has not "pure" NLD:

https://onefootonthespectrum.wordpress. ... -overload/

This week was my first week back at school after a 2-week break (much of which was spent trapped in my house because of the blizzards). Immediately after my return on Tuesday morning, I started to feel very overwhelmed. I felt like there were people everywhere, crowding the hallways, standing in the locker areas, and generally blocking me wherever I went. I was convinced that my school’s population had tripled in size. At first I thought I was just going crazy, but when I told a teacher about it, they pointed something out to me. My school campus, which usually has an abundance of outdoor paths between buildings, was covered in snow, meaning that everyone had to use the indoor hallways to get to class. There really were more people in the hallways! So, my experience on campus this week made me think about sensory overload.

Crowded places freak the hell out of me. I hate being around too many people and bodies and sounds and movement. I don’t like people brushing up against me, yelling in my ear, pushing by me, and getting in my way. I especially hate being touched when I’m in a crowd. I feel like there are people pushing in on me, and my mind begins to shut down. Because I feel like everyone is in my way, I’ll admit that I get very impatient and slightly rude the longer I’m in a crowd; I’ll start to push people out of my way and walk through the middle of conversations and groups. You don’t want to get in my way if we’re in a crowded place! I tell most people that it’s just claustrophobia, but it’s really sensory overload.

When I think about sensory overload, the first thing that comes to mind is lunchtime at school. At lunch, all of my friends and I sit in one of the main classrooms at my school that doubles as a walkway (we don’t have a cafeteria). There’s a piano in there, as well as several other groups of kids. There are people yelling and laughing, someone’s usually playing the piano, I’m surrounded by 20 million different conversations, everyone’s moving around, and there are people everywhere all the time. I get overloaded very easily during this, especially since it’s also the part of my day that is the most socially demanding- I have to deal with all of these noises and people while being social with all of my friends?! It’s incredibly hard for me. Although I’m usually an extremely talkative person, I tend to shut down during lunch and simply try to listen to people. Much more often, I escape to a teacher’s office and eat lunch with them- there are a lot fewer sensory things being thrown at me, and I generally find it infinitely easier to talk to my teachers than my friends. I probably eat lunch with my friends maybe once a week these days, just because the idea of dealing with all of those sensory things fills me with dread.

So, I made it through this week at school by staying in all of my classes late, and running to my next one just in time for it to start. That way, I avoided most of the in-between-class rush! I also ate with teachers. One of my teachers has a very quiet office, so I usually duck in there and talk to him. I find it very calming to hide in those offices and talk to teachers- most of the social expectations are lifted off my shoulders, and all of the sensory chaos that comes with 315 teenagers during lunchtime vanishes. It’s a nice oasis.

My next post will be about teachers, because that’s probably the most important aspect of life for me! So I’ll leave you with a cliffhanger…

He does not look to have "classic" ASD but even the title "One foot on the spectrum" suggests that the author posesses some "Aspieness".

Vocational Rehabilitation is an *excellent* suggestion. They can provide you with resources for just about anything imaginable. They'll also give you career testing to help you nail down something that will fit well with you and your symptoms.

One thing I will toss out, which is pure opinion and not likely to be very popular, is that "Non-Verbal Learning Disability" is a bit of a B* diagnosis. (Ever heard of anyone with "Verbal Learning Disorder"? Of course not) There isn't even much consensus on exactly what the diagnostic criteria are. The problem is that we don't know nearly as much about visuospatial processing difficulties and the upper ends of the autism spectrum as we do about verbal deficits. So while verbal difficulties can be divided into numerous different diagnoses with at least moderately fine-tuned diagnostic criteria (reading disabilities, communication disorders, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, auditory processing deficits, etc.), visual difficulties all get lumped together.

People who have difficulties with eye contact, have a very hard time recalling particulars about people they've met, don't seem to really even recall people they've met- claiming people generally just look alike anyway, who have great difficulty reading facial expressions that aren't eggagerated, and who don't always make proper facial expressions themselves, and who can't seem to organize their notes or even hold a schedule to save their lives...sounds like a prime candidate for AS or NVLD, right? But even moderate prosopagnosia, face blindness, can account for ALL of those symptoms except disorganization. Toss in mild to moderate difficulties with visuospatial processing, and you've got an incredibly messy house, rampantly disorganized desk space and backpacks, and an inability to organize the space on paper for proper note taking.

As far as WAIS scores? You could imagine this person would do poorly on block design due to difficulties committing visual images into their mind and performing manipulations of the objects. Since the Picture Arrangement subtest of the WAIS involves facial expressions as a way to determine the order of the different slides, one would imagine that this would be quite impaired. A poor visual memory due to problems processing visual information (from the visuospatial deficit) could translate into a deficit on coding (which tests many things, but which relies heavily on visual memory) as well as matrix reasoning- which requires you to commit visual informations to visual working memory. And there you have it, a big gap between verbal and performance test scores.

I suppose my point is that while you should certainly make use of your report and really start dissecting your life to find out where your deficits are getting in the way, it may not be a bad idea to find someone to evaluate you later on who has more experience dealing with a broad array of visual processing difficulties as well as high functioning autism, and who knows how to differentiate between them and who doesn't automatically group everything together.

http://www.ldonline.org/xarbb/topic/14386

For me the best signs of being an "Aspie" are social ineptitude and "odd" emotionality (not necessarily "restricted, stereotyped pattern of interests and activities"!) which start in earlier childhood, not cognitive or somatic difficulties. I may want to "redefine" the term PDD to include some groups which im my opinion should be classified as one and not as having just learning/communication difficulties, such as many "NLDers".

There is a tremendous amount of controversy about what differentiates NLD and Asperger Syndrome (AS). The short answer seems to be that children with AS have more significant behavioral issues and a narrow area of interest which impedes their ability to learn. The AS researchers at Yale indicate that the vast majority of individuals with AS also have NLD. Dr. Rourke states that his research indicates that all individuals with AS have NLD. Unfortunately, there are many children who have been diagnosed with AS but do not meet the DSM criteria. Within this group are likely many who actually have autism, but were given a diagnosis of AS either because their symptoms were milder than what the diagnostician would consider to be autism, or in order to spare the child the label of autism. This creates confusion as to the learning style of the child, since AS and NLD children’s preferred learning modality is auditory, while autistic children generally respond better to visual teaching strategies.

http://www.nldontheweb.org/nldentryleve ... tions.html

I agree with many in this text. True F84.5 (not "atypical Kanner-like autisticity") would be mostly verbal than non-verbal learner in my opinion. I may name it as "hyperlogic (oververbal) PDD/ASD". It even has not to be "obsessive", but it rather has "odd" emotionality since childhood (such as quite significant immaturity/childishness, strange fears or emotional reactions, "bizarre" thinking etc.). They may have "stimming" behaviors, fidgeting, tics. Some cases of it may have "pretty" large number of obsessiveness, both "positive" (pleasant," obsessive", interneally narrow interests) or "negative" (possibility of serious OCD with early beginning of symptoms). And hyperlogia is mostly socio-emotional issue, not visual-spatial like NLD. NLD has not to have social deficits! Especially more severe ones and ones which are present in early childhood! Children with hyperlogic ASD may be very, very good students. Restricted interests should not be necessary in diagnosing hyperlogic aspieness, so some people with it may not meet current AS criteria, but they are for me pure-blood Aspies.

AS and its special interests may not impede ability to learn! I read about "diagnosed" Aspies who have significantly better average grades in elementary school than me (>5,4, I had maximally 5,0)! Although I am relatively versatile in my life, also in cognitive area, I had not so high grades. But now AS may be a difficulty in learning because of my "pleasure" obsessions, such as Aspies themselves... But I am on the fifth year of the studies now, it is not elementary school. AS may be even an advantage in early education. Learning, writing, doing simple tasks in school may be like pleasurable routine or "stimming-like" activity for me.

Another rubbish opinion about "NVLD" (bolded fragments):

Poor spatial skills, poor sense of directions, idiosyncratic language (formal use of vocabulary, monotonous speech, etc.), poor comprehension skills, literal thinking, black and white thinking, warped/defective emotional processing, lagging social skills, narrow passionate interests... they overlap in both disorders.

Things that fit AS but don't fit NVLD as well: Rituals and routines, strength in math, stimming, difficulty with change. That said, one study from a while ago says that roughly 50% of Aspergians have gifts in Math, the other 50% runs the normal gamut of ability. (So that suggests if you're terrible in Math, it doesn't rule out Asperger's.)

While my diagnoses are GAD (social anxiety specifically) and ADD, I definitely have traits of Asperger and/or NVLD. However it is very difficult to pin down what is what. I have trouble with changes, narrow interests, and an extreme craving for order, ritual, and routine... but I'm God-awful at Math, I don't "systemize information" obsessively, I'm not very logical, and I don't stim in any overt way.

So in my case it's quite confusing, however to me, it makes more sense to say I have Aspie traits. My own opinion, which some may disagree with, though.. is that AS and NVLD are the same thing, or if not, then mostly the same. But it's just my two cents, and I'm no expert.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168107

I AGREE with underlined text. I might wonder why such a stupid opinions as association of social ineptitude, defective emotional processing and narrow, passionate interests with NVLD are allowed... I think that this form of autisticity (without rigidity of thinking and with dominance of verbal skills) may be not related to childhood autism at all and therefore be not on the "kannerotypal" spectrum, but it is not just a learning problem.

I think that there may be distinction between three types of "acoria" (but they are not only types of it): kannerotypal, hyperlogic (oververbal) and eneldic (word coined from "NLD").

1. Kannerotypal acoria is on the spectrum of classic autism. It has rigid thinking, tends to have domination of nonverbal thinking abilities (especially visual) and marked sensory issues. It is "geek syndrome", it tend to have specialisation, for example in IT area. It is too much like childhood autism (F84.0), but using ICD-10 it tends to be classified as F84.5, not F84.1 (atypical autism), which is a neighbor of F84.0.

2. Hyperlogic acoria appear to be often misclassified as nonverbal learning disability. It is a sort of pervasive developmental disorder which may not meet ICD-10 and DSM-IV (and even more DSM-V) criteria of a PDD/ASD, it is mostly socio-emotional developmental disability. It has marked dyssemia (nonverbal communication impairment) and has marked social problems since early childhood. It tend to have good, often early developed, verbal skills. Emotionality is often odd, immature, obsessiveness may be in this PDD. It is rather "nerd" than "geek syndrome". Sensory issues tend to be milder. Scholastic abilities may be different, educational impairment in visual-spatial area is not necessary symptom in it.

A person who described himself on this page probably have it: https://onefootonthespectrum.wordpress.com/about/

Things you need to know:

1. My main passion is school and learning - I’ve always lived for it, and I plan on going into academia for my career after college and graduate school.
2. I tend to obsess, a lot. See my “Things I Love” page and posts about obsessions for details.
3. Social stuff is very hard for me, but has gotten better over the years.
4. Co-morbid conditions with my NLD: clinical depression, generalized anxiety, social anxiety.

So this person appear to be: studious, obsessive, socially inept and somewhat emotionally "dysregulated" (depression, anxiety). Good example of hyperlogic polymixia for me.

3. Eneldic acoria is just a (visual-spatial) learning disorder, may have problems with motor skills (dyspraxia) and tactile perception (in areas such as recognising objects with closed eyes). It is scholastic issue. It is not "nerdy", has not significant social ineptitude (at least before adolescence) and emotional "weirdnesses" (for example obsessiveness), unlike hyperlogic acoria. For this group the terms such as "PDD", "Aspie", "polymixia" (my neologism for "serious and complex mental developmental disorder", counterpart of PDD term, but in more inclusive sense) may look to harsh and inappriopiate.

For me it is important to classify these developmental disorders properly. Hyperlogic acoria has to be classified in one group with childhood autism and other PDDs, but eneldic can stand in LD category. It appears to be important to divide kannerotypal and hyperlogic aspieness, because they etiology may be really different despite a load of similarities. Hyperlogic one is for me "truer" F84.5 from ICD-10, kannerotypal is for me a sort of F84.1 (atypical autism). Hyperlogia is for me PDDic part of "eneldian spectrum", which contains a form of aspergerism/autisticity.

http://www.currentpsychiatry.com/home/article/does-your-patient-have-a-psychiatric-illness-or-nonverbal-learning-disorder/3e46f0aa181874111d6cd8efe381a17c.html#1005CP_Article3-tab2

For example tables: Differences between NLD and Asperger’s disorder, Differences among NLD, ADHD, and bipolar disorder

For me this article proves that current use of name "nonverbal learning disorder" is BLATANT RUBBISH. It is unjust and harmful, because it significantly underestimate the severity and complexity of the problem.

I think that "NLD" described here has to be separated from learning disorders and specific developmental disorders, but also from autism "spectrum" disorders. It is not in one spectrum with childhood autism for me. I also would diagnose myself with something now misnamed as "NLD", not with autism "spectrum" disorder.

I would classify it as a distinct branch of pervasive developmental disorders (F84 in ICD-10). I suppose that this syndrome is not related to Kanner's autism. "NLD" is not a "specific" developmental disorder, it is too "global" difference.

I think that the name of "nonverbal learning disorder" HAS to be changed and this serious and complex developmental disability (which for me exist as a spectrum, like "classic" autism) should be put in DSM and ICD, but obviously not as a "learning disorder", "specific developmental disorder", but as a "pervasive developmental disability".

I don't know how many are aware, but this is important information. Many people with autism, especially the more gregariously presenting, artistic, precociously verbal types, also have traits of a neurological condition co-occurring known as Nonverbal Learning Disorder. Now, personally, I feel NLD itsself could and/or should be a form of autism.

In retrospect, this depends, some features of NLD alone seem to disqualify the Aspergers, for example; having to think about how to "socially be." Apparently NLDers alone don't have this inhibition issue, and are merely hyper social, as are those with "ADD/ADHD" alone. NLD and ADD/ADHD overlap is also common, and is sadly highly prevalent amongst people with mental health and addiction issues. However, I think the NLD/Asperger overlap could also be prevalent in that group of people, though the genuinely present Aspergers factor is being overlooked.

Those with an overlap of Aspergers and NLD will "socially cope" using their NLD and maybe ADHD features, but ultimately still have to *think* about it, and may experience internal anxiety over it. In fact, this may then cause a "flipping into" the more pseudo-chatty *cocktail speech.* In fact, close friends of the Aspie/NLDer may find it somewhat comical whence they notice their friend is becoming very overloaded i.e.. "wing nutty", "squirelly", rambling-while-brainfried, and/or even "manic." People close to me will tell me "Ok, Rose, I think you need to go rest" whilst pat-patting me on the head and chuckling. Sometimes I say it myself; I'm actually getting a lot better at doing this, in a nice way.

Now of course, when Aspergers is involved, there is an "Aspergian twist" on the nature of the cocktail speech. For one, it's usually more intellectual in some way, though may ultimately be cited from a working memory of facts that were stored whence they were special interests. For so many reasons that could be touched on in a longer blog, this is potentially a poor, detrimental, and inadvertently self-destructive coping mechanism for underlying social anxiety and neurological overload. Though it can serve as a good, sometimes needed charming and even entertaining "front", it must be reigned in, regulated, modulated, and kept at least somewhat genuine. If not, it can hurt the health and the psyche. I explained about this in my book *The Fork Theory*.

Yes, no matter how good the performance may seem, one with NLD- featuring-Aspergers will shut down after, sometimes very severely, if they cocktail-spoke themselves to the max. They will avoid social situations, and be "in hiding" when not feeling "up to it." Again, this is in spite of how socially gregarious they may seem on the surface, and how they may genuinely enjoy certain interactions, in certain environments (particularly ones of interest), and at the right times.

Furthermore, while some features of NLD are very similar to Aspergers, some counter ones seen in that "Classic Asperger" profile. This is why people like me (and women in particular, though some guys too) fall through the cracks on autism diagnosis. I would classify an overlap of NLD and Aspergers as pretty full on hyper-verbal-ability autism. It could even get something like PDD-NOS.(Pervasive Development None Other Specified)

Of course, when I use these labels, it's only to understand certain things logically. Everybody's situation is individual, though classifying the gist can help with awareness and management approaches. This is why this information is important. A diagnosis of NLD doesn't' bring any services, which is sad because considering the traits I feel it needs support just as much as Aspergers, in it's own right.

Ultimately, the current approaches to public supports for even conditions in which support is available, are usually not adequate. Sometimes people may get lucky, but self-awareness/community interdependence via the sharing of information and tips is often the superior way to go.

http://www.girloutside.org/girl-outside-blog-journal/2014/8/3/an-intro-to-aspergers-with-nld-nonverbal-learning-disorder-features-and-overlap

I agree with bolded fragments.

Here is another article about AS and NVLD:

http://www.ldao.ca/introduction-to-ldsadhd/ldsadhs-in-depth/articles/about-lds/asperger-syndrome-and-nonverbal-learning-disabilities/

Asperger Syndrome and Nonverbal Learning Disabilities

The syndrome of Nonverbal Learning Disabilities consists of difficulty in the acquisition and use of academic skills and life skills, due to deficits in the following areas: visual-spatial organization, interpreting visual and tactile information, nonverbal problem solving, and motor coordination for complex tasks. These areas of relative weakness lead to difficulties in adapting to new situations, social difficulties due to poor understanding of nonverbal communication, and problems academically in the areas of mathematics, handwriting and reading comprehension. Individuals with NLD have strengths in the areas of interpretation of auditory information, vocabulary, and verbal memory, with academic success in reading decoding and spelling. This pattern of strengths and weaknesses generally leads to higher scores on the verbal portion of the IQ tests than on the performance (nonverbal reasoning) sections.

The areas of difficulty present in NLD produce some of the same symptoms that are seen in children with AS. The inability to understand and respond to nonverbal communication (for example, facial expressions and gestures) leads to problems with conversational turn-taking, responding to others’ feelings, and staying on topic. These communication difficulties affect social interactions, and this can eventually lead to social withdrawal. Difficulty understanding new situations produces a tendency to return to favorite topics and activities. Motor difficulties lead to clumsiness and difficulty learning fine motor skills.

Because of the similarities between the symptoms seen in AS and NLD, research is ongoing to determine the extent of the overlap between the two syndromes. What is clear is that there are some individuals who meet criteria for both AS and NLD. Different studies, however have reached different conclusions about the proportion of children with AS who also show the learning deficits associated with NLD, and the proportion of children with NLD who have social and communication deficits to a degree that would fit the criteria for AS. Some researchers feel that NLD is the cognitive profile found in all individuals with strictly-defined AS, while others feel that the two syndromes are distinct, but overlapping. The ongoing debate surrounding the specific diagnostic criteria for both AS and NLD contributes to the varying opinions on this matter.

After reading tis article I think that "NVLD" does not fit me so strongly. I do not have "classic" Asperger's. But scholastic abilities were my strength. My interest might have negative influence on my results in school. I may also ave problems in concentration and attention which are not caused by "NLD". I think that I have cognitive profile of NLD, but it was not so "destructive" in scholastic area.

Definition of a subtype of "NLD" (for me it is an aucorigic syndrome) from http://simonbaruchcurriculum.pbworks.com/f/Non-Verbal%20Learning%20Disabilities.pdf:

C. Subtype: Predominant Deficiency in Social Perception

1. Neuropsychological Profile

a. Difficulty understanding gestures (gestures assume the ability to associate meaning with a visual-movement pattern)
• Difficulty interpreting and differentiating facial expressions; may misjudge a speaker’s mood.
• Occasional emotional outbursts initiated by overreaction to and misinterpretation of other children’s actions.

b.No close friendships
• Insensitive to voice tone
• Difficulty with “unspoken” social rules
• Difficulty with implicit social information
• Difficulty with conversational turn taking (pragmatics)

c. Anxious (anxiety due to difficulty balancing self and world)
• Introverted; smiles less than peers; flat affect.
• Poor or variable eye contact (gets better with familiarity)
• Rule-bound (when the rules change, they have difficulty accommodating; very literal; rigid.
• Unintentionally tactless→social offensiveness and tendency to alienate others whether strangers or acquaintances.
• Difficulty with transitions; novelty
• Prone to depression

d. Difficulty with cause-effect reasoning (WISC-III Picture Arrangement)

e. Misdiagnosed as Asperger’s but they do not have restricted interests

f. Poor flexibility (WISC-III Comprehension)

2. Educational Profile:

a. Bright youngster (usually)

b. Reading:
Early reader but oral reading lacks expressive quality.

c. Math:
Average ability though lower than reading and spelling.

d. Written Language:
• Student is willing to do journal writing and personal narratives.
• Nearly phobic when asked to write a topical essay.
• Difficulty anticipating what the reader needs to know

Bolded traits looks "nerdy" (appear to be associated with above-average intellectual abilities and marked social ineptitude) for me and appear to fit me quite good. So they are features of "nerd syndrome(s)" which look(s) very "aucorigic" for me.

For me "nonverbal learning disabilities" described here (http://simonbaruchcurriculum.pbworks.com/f/Non-Verbal%20Learning%20Disabilities.pdf) are not isolated problems, but complex developmental disorders, syndromes. They can affect not only scholastic abilities (like reading or Math disabilities), but also motoric abilities, executive functioning, socio-emotional area, I often read about sensory anomalies in people with "NLD".

I think that "NLD syndromes" (at least these which "give" developmental social ineptitude) should have own code in PDD group (the term of PDD should be redefined). They has to be renamed and classified in one group with "autism spectrum", not with isolated learning problems such as dyslexia. They are "pervasive" (at least when harm socio-emotional area), not "specific" developmental disorders. "NLD syndromes" are not specific disorders of scholastic skills for me, because they affect also motoric, executive or socio-emotional area.

From the same page:

Presumably NLD can be the result of genetic anomalies (e.g., Turner’s, Fragile X females), prenatal insults, acquired disorders (e.g., ECMO, cranial radiation, etc.), or developmental disorders.

C. Rourke’s Proposed Theory
1. NLD is diagnosed on the basis of a pattern of strengths and weaknesses in academic skills rather than their absolute levels, which theoretically stem from a pattern of neuropsychological strengths and weaknesses reflecting white matter dysfunction in the right hemisphere.

I may name "NLD syndromes" as "hyperlogisms" (from Greek "hyper" - over and "logos" - word), or "oververbalities" because of the tendency to having well-developed verbal skills (often no speech delay and early acquisition of reading ability, good grammar skills) and worse abilities in visual-spatial and motoric areas. Current name is misleading because it is for me definitely something "larger" than just a "specific disorder of scholastic skills" (SDSS).

Some people may tell about themselves that they are Aspies, but they does not look autistic for me. I suppose that many of them may be diagnosed with "NLD".

I have obsession about "NLD". It consumes large amount of my time. I suppose that I have just NLD, not for example Asperger's or schizotypal personality (although I was diagnosed with both). NLD profile fits me. I have not so large difficulties in Maths, reading graphs, maps, clocks, handwriting, riding a bike, but verbal abilities appear to be more developed in my case than visual-spatial and motoric ones. I may not be on autism spectrum and schizophrenia spectrum. I wonder what diagnosis I would receive in Northern America - ASD, something "schizo" or just NLD (maybe with neurotic disorders)? I think that I have something which is sometimes named as "social NLD". I do not bother with nonverbal communication so much, I have small amount of interpersonal contact, I do not have strictly technical abilities such as repairing and have rather verbal learning style. I do not need sameness so much and rather do not have rigid routines. I have "fixated" interests in some topics. I am "too concentrated" on myself in social interactions. I am not so strongly oversensitive to sounds, light, odors, touch etc. They look stupid, boring and senseless for me. I am quite good in recognising people, at least as someone with AS diagnosis. I have marked social issues, but my visual-spatial and motor problems are milder (but I also have some problems in this areas). I was diagnosed with conditions which belong to autism spectrum and schizophrenia spectrum (which may sound scary). But I may not have the disorders which are "autistic" or "schizotypal". But I can have marked problems even without them. I am irresponsible, sluggish, obsessed, immature, socially inept and appear to have not so much marketable skills.

The term NLD "gives" me large confusion and obsessions. I think that I may have just a learning disorder (especially affecting social skills, not scholastic abilities), not a form of autism or schizotypality.

I think that current classification of developmental disorders is bad. All developmental socio-emotional disorders (DSEDs) should be grouped in one category (which would be the counterpart of PDD category from ICD-10) which would encompass "NLDs" (at least "social" ones), autistic spectrum and other conditions which are destructive to social development. This category has to be distinct from learning disorders such as dyslexia and dyscalculia, speech disorders, conduct disorders and personality disorders, anxiety and affective disorders. DSEDs often have co-occuring cognitive, sensory and executive functioning problems.