I want to know...

Post Reply New Topic

Why shouldn't you? You could do better than think about shooting people in the head at the very least I know I could(doesn't mean it still ain't fun though:D ). By their actions they reject God and have to deal with the consequences of that, God is not going to force his divine truth upon people by forcing it into their minds, he gave them a choice and they chose the wrong choice. I disagree, many of them can comprehend a different life and that is why whenever they go onto death row they have these amazing "I finally realize I am going to die" conversions. Many of them knew about God before hand and I would not be surprised if they knew on some level that what they were doing was wrong, it is just that they did not process the morality of the situation and largely because they chose not to. The average high-schooler knows on some level that cheating is wrong, however, that does not mean that they won't cheat.


Well, I suppose that it is a personal thing really. You wouldn't be the first person to have that idea about respect and you are not going to be the last, it is just that Christians respect him for his power and goodness. You are right, I suppose that might be natural for him to do, the amount of effort he put into this endeavor is unknown of course, he apparently did have to rest after 6 days of making the world(6 days can be interpreted differently, largely based upon whether the literal interpretation is taken or if 6 days is actually millions of years). Pretty much God is unique and very capable and that is part of what we respect, think of a genius, figuring out brilliant things is natural to a genius but we still respect them for doing as such. I know, some people do say Christ is a part of God, and others say he is the son of God, it all comes down to interpretation but I have more commonly heard son of God so I use the term that I am more familiar with. Well, the origin has no bearing on things because we can only know the results of said event, I mean, some Christian sects do believe that we can become gods(I believe Mormons do and that is a difference between them and other groups) so the fact that God is already a god would give them respect for him like a High School soccer player would give to Pele. The whole thing about Satan and God is something that is hard to fully understand, we don't know the nature of divine beings and Satan is a divine being of some form. Well, I am not really trying to be the most thoughtful on this discussion, I am not an expert on this topic and thinking too hard could make things worse, I am trying to simplify things to make it simpler, trying to explain every branch of Christianity and the theories behind it and all would make for a difficult task for anyone but a religion expert. Moral means pretty close to one thing to a Christian and that is being in line with the Christian religion's ethics because being that God is the truth, all other systems of ethics are false.



You do make a valid point, I tend to ignore the social problems pages because it is really hard to give advice for somebody else's life unless you know them and what is going on. Part of the love problem comes from the fact that it is hard to love without others who love and this is part of why a church exists(well, ignoring the fact that power-hungry preachers in the past wanted them to exist and only looking at how modern church-goingness is voluntary). Part of the idea behind Pascal's wager was that if an individual tries to be religious he will end up being religious simply by acting the part, if your actions and your beliefs conflict the mind tries to correct the difference... if I only remembered what that was called, like cognitive dissonance or something. You are right, I may have tried to oversimplify things a little, but the world is to complex for a 1000 page novel much less a simple internet conversation. It does often come down to whether a person wants something or not and what they will give up to have it(time, effort, etc) violent people can become less violent through their efforts if they try to recognize the problem and fix it. Stalin did what he did largely out of paranoia, he was afraid that all of those people would be plotting against him, the specifics of the situation varay from person to person, he is a bad person because from the number of bad things he did it can be pretty well assumed that he wasn't a good person, at the very least not according to the ethical system of anyone I know. Hitler did have his reasons, like it is speculated that he is part Jewish due to an ancestor that served a Jew and some various parts involving that, he did not just wake up one day and said that the Jews were evil, he slowly descended into madness which culminated in a world philosophy that the Jews were evil and trying to destroy the Arian race and that all who helped the Jews were their pawns. However, it cannot be stated that these individuals made no choices during these events, they had some influences like beloved mothers dying or horrible looks but that does not change that Stalin chose to join the marxists and that Hitler chose to lead armies out to destroy the world. I was not "pushed" into who I am, some aspects were strongly influenced by the world around me but I recognize many aspects of myself to be distinctly me and my choice.




If the beliefs are utterly different than that of the Bible then they are utterly wrong according to the religious doctrine, the Bible is a law of some form and to disobey that is a crime and people should pay for crimes. Our laws are just some government mad that it is not getting its way, there is no morality about stop lights, traffic signs, or violating zoning regulations and yet you still get punished for those. Yet, both God and the government(supposedly) are looking out for our best interests.

Interesting because no definition of witch says "herbalist" they all have some religious/supernatural relation. Well, let me put it this way, if you are responsible for carrying out the law and you see someone that you suspect of being a criminal what are you going to do? If they are a criminal then you must punish them but avoid getting hurt yourself and if you think that you are in danger then you would probably kill them first, the same goes for a Christian going after a witch(although I still think that supernatural witches only exist in fairy tales) they should investigate a suspected witch and try to ascertain things without any harm being done but that does not mean that they will not kill an innocent on accident, they just need to try not to. Cops have more training with criminals than Christians with witches(largely because there are more criminals than witches at a ratio that is about 1:0)

Why shouldn't you? You could do better than think about shooting people in the head at the very least I know I could(doesn't mean it still ain't fun though:D ). By their actions they reject God and have to deal with the consequences of that, God is not going to force his divine truth upon people by forcing it into their minds, he gave them a choice and they chose the wrong choice. I disagree, many of them can comprehend a different life and that is why whenever they go onto death row they have these amazing "I finally realize I am going to die" conversions. Many of them knew about God before hand and I would not be surprised if they knew on some level that what they were doing was wrong, it is just that they did not process the morality of the situation and largely because they chose not to. The average high-schooler knows on some level that cheating is wrong, however, that does not mean that they won't cheat.
[/quote]

In the religion subject for what little time I did it, I was told that thinking bad thoughts was wrong and would get you sent to Hell, that sounds way over the top to me. What the "divine" truth that "I'm right and you're wrong, but that's ok because you don't know any better"?. People shouldn't be blackmailed into some other being's idea of right and wrong. They were probably really messed up in the first place or they always wanted that kind of thing but their circumstances weren't right (That kind of thing being a nice peaceful life which they could just as easily get living in a different place but didn't know) I assume you had that young man who went to jail for killing someone and converted in prison or were at least had him in mind. Either way the real killers do it for many reasons manily because they don't see themselves as having a choice, why don't you hear about them? Because it's so common why talk about it? I knew this one guy who would kill people with his "Homies" because it was percived that they were trying to get in on his "Turf", he wasn't bad, just didn't know any other way, he was dealing drugs from a young age and got kicked out, anyway point is the professional ones, the ones that do this for a living the ones that ar most common do not regret what they've done, only that they don't have a better life and they'll do almost anything to get there. (By the way, he was very respectful when you respected him, he wasn't some psycho)


Well, I suppose that it is a personal thing really. You wouldn't be the first person to have that idea about respect and you are not going to be the last, it is just that Christians respect him for his power and goodness. You are right, I suppose that might be natural for him to do, the amount of effort he put into this endeavor is unknown of course, he apparently did have to rest after 6 days of making the world(6 days can be interpreted differently, largely based upon whether the literal interpretation is taken or if 6 days is actually millions of years). Pretty much God is unique and very capable and that is part of what we respect, think of a genius, figuring out brilliant things is natural to a genius but we still respect them for doing as such. I know, some people do say Christ is a part of God, and others say he is the son of God, it all comes down to interpretation but I have more commonly heard son of God so I use the term that I am more familiar with. Well, the origin has no bearing on things because we can only know the results of said event, I mean, some Christian sects do believe that we can become gods(I believe Mormons do and that is a difference between them and other groups) so the fact that God is already a god would give them respect for him like a High School soccer player would give to Pele. The whole thing about Satan and God is something that is hard to fully understand, we don't know the nature of divine beings and Satan is a divine being of some form. Well, I am not really trying to be the most thoughtful on this discussion, I am not an expert on this topic and thinking too hard could make things worse, I am trying to simplify things to make it simpler, trying to explain every branch of Christianity and the theories behind it and all would make for a difficult task for anyone but a religion expert. Moral means pretty close to one thing to a Christian and that is being in line with the Christian religion's ethics because being that God is the truth, all other systems of ethics are false.[/quote]

Exactly, therefore i'd have to change myself (No matter how small) to become a Christian, I wouldn't want to change at all, there might be a few things I regret, but they've made me into the person I am today. Effort? He's a God isn't he? Why should anything make him tired? You might but again, you're generalising, I do not eaxctly respect geniuses, they were born that way, they're just doing what their mind is telling them to do, just like everyone else. So we are then talking about the interpretation of the Bible that he is the Son of God? Well I have some info that contradicts that belief too, there is evidence that Jesus was actually just born out of an affair. However it is important because if Jesus was God then that would mean that God was doing things that he said he wouldn't. I don't see Mormons as actually Christian because technically they have a different messiah. Well the whole point is that Satan isn't seen as even being a match for him, so why should God have any trouble from him? Haha, that's nice "thinking too hard could make things worse" have you been reading the thread about thinking being bad for you? Yeah, basically being intollerant of others beliefs, and as you said "All other belief systems are false".


You do make a valid point, I tend to ignore the social problems pages because it is really hard to give advice for somebody else's life unless you know them and what is going on. Part of the love problem comes from the fact that it is hard to love without others who love and this is part of why a church exists(well, ignoring the fact that power-hungry preachers in the past wanted them to exist and only looking at how modern church-goingness is voluntary). Part of the idea behind Pascal's wager was that if an individual tries to be religious he will end up being religious simply by acting the part, if your actions and your beliefs conflict the mind tries to correct the difference... if I only remembered what that was called, like cognitive dissonance or something. You are right, I may have tried to oversimplify things a little, but the world is to complex for a 1000 page novel much less a simple internet conversation. It does often come down to whether a person wants something or not and what they will give up to have it(time, effort, etc) violent people can become less violent through their efforts if they try to recognize the problem and fix it. Stalin did what he did largely out of paranoia, he was afraid that all of those people would be plotting against him, the specifics of the situation varay from person to person, he is a bad person because from the number of bad things he did it can be pretty well assumed that he wasn't a good person, at the very least not according to the ethical system of anyone I know. Hitler did have his reasons, like it is speculated that he is part Jewish due to an ancestor that served a Jew and some various parts involving that, he did not just wake up one day and said that the Jews were evil, he slowly descended into madness which culminated in a world philosophy that the Jews were evil and trying to destroy the Arian race and that all who helped the Jews were their pawns. However, it cannot be stated that these individuals made no choices during these events, they had some influences like beloved mothers dying or horrible looks but that does not change that Stalin chose to join the marxists and that Hitler chose to lead armies out to destroy the world. I was not "pushed" into who I am, some aspects were strongly influenced by the world around me but I recognize many aspects of myself to be distinctly me and my choice.[/quote]

[/quote]Yeah well people have a way of ignoring things that are plainly obvious just to help them get through life, alot of "Christians" did that alot. So you think if someone wants to be Christian then they'll simply act like one to balance it out? Making fun of everything and everyone is a part of my humour, it seems to me that if I were to truly become a Christian i'd have to leave part of me behind, I don't want that and I don't see that as becoming better, yet i'd suffer forever simply because I want to stay who I am, you've even said it yourself whether you realise it or not. You seem to think that it would actually be physically possible for everyone to be Christian, i'd don't believe that for a second, history seems to show that no matter how many good people are around there will always be bad people and if there are too many good people bad people will restore the balance and vice versa. So the paradise that God is asking for sounds like a fantasy to me. Think about it, if a person was to grow up surounded by good people they might become a good person, but more likely they wouldn't get the up bringing they should and then would become bad, this would be repeated all over the place until balance was restored.


If the beliefs are utterly different than that of the Bible then they are utterly wrong according to the religious doctrine, the Bible is a law of some form and to disobey that is a crime and people should pay for crimes. Our laws are just some government mad that it is not getting its way, there is no morality about stop lights, traffic signs, or violating zoning regulations and yet you still get punished for those. Yet, both God and the government(supposedly) are looking out for our best interests.[/quote]

Yeah, again it's the whole you don't do what I say, you don't believe what I believe so you shouldn't exist. You can't go around comparing "You should kill anyone who is Gay" or "You should kill anyone who is a Witch" to "You need to wear a seat belt" anyway, God is supposed to be perfect, Government isn't. Well that's where Christianity trips up isn't it? How do you know if God really is? It would make alot more sense if God was the bad guy and the real good guy was actually Satan or something or rather, and Satan had just developed a bad name for himself, I think that if God and Satan did exist as in the Bible, God wouldn't need to do anything or need any "laws" and Satan would be the guy you always hear about because he'd always be trying to change us.

[/quote] Interesting because no definition of witch says "herbalist" they all have some religious/supernatural relation. Well, let me put it this way, if you are responsible for carrying out the law and you see someone that you suspect of being a criminal what are you going to do? If they are a criminal then you must punish them but avoid getting hurt yourself and if you think that you are in danger then you would probably kill them first, the same goes for a Christian going after a witch(although I still think that supernatural witches only exist in fairy tales) they should investigate a suspected witch and try to ascertain things without any harm being done but that does not mean that they will not kill an innocent on accident, they just need to try not to. Cops have more training with criminals than Christians with witches(largely because there are more criminals than witches at a ratio that is about 1:0)[/quote]

Well either way the point is that the "real" Witches weren't bad at all, they just wanted to live their own lives and in some cases actually helped the community, my info is kind of vague in regard to what they actually were. You can't compare Christians to Cops, even if your just a normal person (at least here) you aren't allowed to do anything but call the police, unless they try to harm you. Anyway, you're still saying that basically you can kill someone if they don't believe what you believe, are already a criminal, or seemingly have a pact with a bad guy that you believe exist but others may not, by that reasoning I could say that I am allowed to kill George W. Bush as long as I am not hurt myself in the process as it is my belief that he is my beliefs (Or lack of beliefs) version of the Anti-Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch

I listen to the Wiggles.

Joking! I'm joking! I swear I am joking! Please believe me!! !



The god described in the christian bible is a VERY petty character. And unethical.

Even if the christian god proved his existence tomorrow, I would still refuse to worship/revere him because of how petty and unethical he is (if the stories in the christian bible are to be believed). After reading their bible, it became evident to me that their god character is a murderous a**hole. It is astonishing that people revere such a VILE character.

I don't mean to rain on anyones parade here, but I think what you are arguing about can't be argued. Its like arguing who the best baseball player is. These seem to be opinions about ethical points of view instead of debates about logical reasoning. Then again, I didn't read the whole thing, so if I'm wrong, I say carry on...

HEY!! What's wrong with the Wiggles?



The Bible is very strange, yeah, the lyrics "Hey there cracked God" comes to mind

I think it's more like God's ethical point of veiw that we're debating, you can't bring logic into something that isn't logical, I mean i'm not trying to say that religion is wrong or that it's illogical, i'm focusing on a specific religion here and all these little conflicting problems i've always had with it.

They might not see themselves as having a choice but technically they always have a choice, they are not literally forced into pulling the trigger by some supernatural force so therefore being that they control their actions they have a choice to do or to not do anything. Killing people is bad, he might not perceive it as such but just ask the average cop. He has had the opportunity to learn this law(and he probably already knows about it) but he ignores it. This guy also has undoubtedly had the opportunity to learn about God but he has not taken that opportunity either. I realize that sometimes life leaves hard choices but Christians have suffered and died for their beliefs.

Well, for the things you regret you have changed yourself in response. Everyone changes in some form or fashion and all that is being asked is that you try to improve yourself in a certain direction. Heaven is not a place for slackers or the undevoted, it is for people that wanted to be good and therefore became as such. Honestly, I do not know about the nature of God, there is something that does not add up perfectly about him of course which lead to theodicies which are better to be left to theologians. All that is known for certain about God is that he is greater than man but the nature of such a being is not something I have direct access to. Most people do respect geniuses and they do respect power, especially when it is justly used, most people respect greatness(which is also why geniuses and others tend to get respect) and God is great by his definition. Well, let's just put it this way, we both know there are many interpretations of things and the major thing about Jesus is that he is divine and holy, he performed miracles, and really the fact that he is divine and holy and gave us holy words is the important part of a discussion about the moral thing, I do not know about your proof and cannot say it is true or not true and most people probably don't know about it either. Mormons consider themselves Christian and probably see Joseph Smith as their Martin Luther who showed them a better way of Christianity. Of course many people don't see them as Christian and many view them as a cult but they view themselves as Christian. Honestly, I do not know the divine nature of things, God is very powerful on the mortal plane, maybe things are different on the divine plane, the focus of things is normally on God's law and his prophets, not on the nature of the divine, perhaps it is part of some divine truth beyond our understanding. The "thinking too hard" comment was me saying that I am not an expert and acknowledging that I have my limits on this. Thinking hard on something where my understanding is not perfect could lead to a misrepresentation of Christians(something that I have probably already done) and I wish to avoid that as much as possible. I am a thinker and I also said in that same sentence "I am not an expert", it is like the plumber trying not to fix electric circuitry, he knows that if he tries to do more he might get somebody shocked. Intolerant of beliefs? Well let me put it this way, the sky cannot both be all green and all blue and therefore if a statement claiming that the sky is completely blue is true then all statements that make any other claims are false. The presence of one truth makes all things that relate to that issue but don't agree with it false. I mean, the premise behind the religion is that it is the truth so other religions must be false, most other religions are the same way and people of different religions may of course respect each other but if they have faith in their own religion they will never see the other religion as being just as true. I mean, strong Atheists would never claim that their beliefs were as good as those of a religion and religions would never claim that their beliefs were as good as the other religions and so on and so forth.


Yes, I know that people ignore things, this includes Christians and non-Christians, I ignore the threads that don't interest me and I would bet that you don't check every single thread either. Acting like a Christian will lead to becoming one because if a person's actions disagree with what they think then eventually the brain will try to correct the disagreement. It is not about God rewarding appearances over truths it is that appearances become truth, if you try to change your actions over a long period of time eventually those actions will become second nature to you and if you profess beliefs over a significant amount of time then eventually you will hold them... at least if you do not try to restrain those tendencies during the set period. Blaise Pascal's argument behind the wager was not that God would reward fear but that people could become Christians out of the desire to do so. Ok, you like your humor, good for you, that is your choice. It is physically possible for the entire world to be Christian if they all just woke up one day and said "man oh man, I want to be a Christian", the point you are showing is that it is not very damn likely which I agree with. There is nothing physically preventing everyone from converting but the probability of everyone doing so is small There is no dynamic equilibrium equation for the human race, and there is no real balance, there is human choice and its consequences, if we claim that a human being has a 50-50 chance of being good or evil and we had a billion people it is technically possible that we could have 0 evil people or 0 good people however it is most likely that it will rest around 500 million people for each side, this is not equilibrium, just the results of probability as each person's choice is assumed for this experiment to be independent(making a complex model would be more difficult as we would have to account for clustering effects and such). The fact of the matter is that this is only God's desire, I never said it would happen but it would be a nice thing but because of free-will(or probability or whatever) some people will always choose evil.


Well, he gives existance to all regardless of sin, but actively working with pure evil to corrupt innocent minds is a different thing. I never said anything about homosexuality anyway, that was not even mentioned. What is the difference? I compared 2 laws, they only varied in the creator of those 2 laws but they are both truly laws and commands, I know that one is an imperfect source and one is better but still both serve similar functions. It would actually make less sense if Satan was the good guy because Satan stands for many things that we would consider evil, Satan stands for all murder, all lust, and all selfishness and he is villified to begin with. This shows that 1 he isn't good, God offers more good than Satan does which even a non-believer could see from comparison as God promotes charity, and all sorts of good stuff and Satan is shown to be for all sorts of things that are considered wrong by all societies. Satan already did change us with the Apple of all knowledge, and because we know both good and evil God shows us what is good with his rules and such. You can follow Satan all you want, God has given you that freedom(so long as you don't invoke Satanic powers which is extremely unlikely to happen) but don't expect a good outcome. Your life means it is your responsibility.


The real witches(the ones killed for witchcraft) probably weren't bad, they were victims of people who didn't know what they were doing and acting rashly out of fear and stupidity, I mean, the term witchhunt is now a term describing their poor poor methods. Well, moral law always trumps secular law whether you are Christian or not, people followed their morality by hiding the jews from the Nazis but they defied their secular laws. I would not say that your beliefs on George Bush being the anti-christ are right but if you truly believed that then you would try to kill him if you were a good person. I mean, I did not say that this would make you immune to secular law(unless secular law was governed by the same moral law) but I don't think that any source would tell you to disobey your morals, the war protesters of past wars might have defied the laws from time to time but I would not say that they were wrong for following their morality, I might think that their morality was wrong but those things are different.

Pretty much the idea behind Christianity is moral absolutism(which combined with modern liberal beliefs(not talking about politics) tends to be seen as the ability to choose between right and wrong and be punished for that choice), a belief and respect for God based on his nature, and

No but they still don't realise they do, they see things from the point of veiw that the world is a jungle, they have to fight for everything.



That might be improvement in your eyes but it isn't in mine. Great by your deffinition remember, not mine. But even when you know your limits you should always try to push them. Well the world wont end if you try to explain Christianity, even though you aren't an expert, people that aren't experts try to explain things all the time. So what if it's false? I wouldn't torture them forever just because they're wrong, i'd try to explain how they are wrong and if they still don't understand i'd show them proof and maybe try to show them someone who can explain it better, if that doesn't work then what do I care? But belief in a different thing should seperate people or force people into a different way of thinking (As Christianity still seems to do from your veiw point) as good as? What does that mean?



That's not what i've seen, alot of the people I know (One of them being my sister) think they are Christian but don't have a clue about any of it does that make them Christian? They don't act like they are. It's just like some of the kids at school don't like Chinese people they assume that they're "Taking over the country" or some BS, well that's being racist, but that isn't the way they see it. No, my point is that it is immpossible, as in the way the world works just wont allow for it. For some people there is physically something preventing them, some people were just wired so badly when they were born that they have an urge to kill people or rape or any other thing that might prevent them from ever being able to be a Christian. As I said it isn't just probability or free-will et cetera, it's brain chemistry, it's how the world around them has affected them (Which goes back to my point about you being pushed into who you are, the fact is you were affected by your enviroment)

I'll quote a line from one of my favorite bands.
The Red House Painters
"Revelation Big Sur"

then an awesome acoustic guitar solo

They have a choice, they can lie to themselves or cover themselves up with some ideology but they still do have a choice. The alternatives may not always be pleasant but the point is not the alternatives it is that choices exist. They could always choose to see the world differently, it is not like paradigm shifts do not happen.


I never said that it would be improvement in your eyes, I just said that it is what would need to be done to reach a certain goal that you may or may not have. God if he does exist would be considered great by anyone of the definitions that I selected from the dictionary and listed below.
(I fiddled removed the numbers and the examples but the definitions are left the same, I only selected the applicable definitions though)
Great- Remarkable or outstanding in magnitude, degree, or extent:. . Of outstanding significance or importance: . Superior in quality or character;:. . Powerful; influential: one of the great nations of the West. . Eminent; distinguished:. Informal. Very skillful Informal. Very good; first-rate:.

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

God is remarkable, it doesn't matter if you agree with him or not creating a world is remarkable. He has great significance historically and in terms of the religion. He is superior to what is common. He is powerful and influential. He is distinguished and is asked by many leaders for advice. He is undoubtedly skillful in some regard. Finally, many would deem him to be first rate. Out of all of those definitions listed God would have to fit one of them wouldn't he? Just by ability alone he would have to fit at least one or more of these definitions. I cannot know more than I know and this is not one of those things where it would be good to push my limits. If I am trying to explain something then I must stop where I no longer know what I speak of, otherwise I am no longer doing a good job, personally, I would have preferred it if one of our more religious people here already took up the task. I know people do explain things they have no knowledge about, but by them acting as an authority on that knowledge and having no definite knowledge on the issue is a trait that I do not like in others, and something I would try to do myself(I am pushing this as it is and I would have expected that somebody else would have come by now, I would have sworn there were more Christian aspies). My reluctance has nothing to do with you, it has everything to do with what I am supposedly supposed to be doing in this argument. Ok, the as good as thing means that in order to truly believe in a faith you have to believe it is right and because different faiths will invariably disagree this means that to have your faith the others are wrong in your eyes, because they disagree with your idea of truth and both ideas cannot be right. This can manifest itself stupid and negatively or in a form of acceptance where both sides recognize the other as sort of different and wrong but also they are relatively accepting of the different beliefs and can just see the difference as translation errors and stuff like that(the idea that it is the same God just a different way to try to worship him), I dunno, I could be overstating the differences the faithful feel about different religions, I know the extreme part is right but the other part is something it is harder to get at.


Well, in order to be Christian you would have to at least attempt to understand and follow Christ out of devotion, your sister undoubted doesn't really make the effort. Well, just look at it this way, the Chinese people probably are just as racist. Ok, just messing but I knew this one guy from Taiwan who talked about how Americans were stupid and he even claimed that the reason why everything over here is $x.99 was because we were too stupid to know the difference between that and this $(x+1).00, but yeah, it is at the very least unfair to hate a person because of their nationality(I am not sure that Chinese qualifies a race). My point is that it is possible that it is theoretically possible because many of the things you stated are based on variability. Brain chemisty depends on the genes that you get, there is a possibility that everyone could be born with brains that have less tendency towards bad traits, the reaction to the environment is also variable, individuals react differently to their environment and their final traits can always come out to be good and whether or not they end up being good could be seen as a variable. What I claim can happen is ridiculous when it comes to the sheer probability of it happening(1/x as x approaches 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000^1000000000000000000000000000000000) but that does not mean that it cannot happen, it just means it is very unlikely for it to happen. It could also happen that one year nobody could get sick if we assume that illness is based upon probability, it is very very unlikely given all of the opportunities for individuals to get sick but it is theoretically possible. Pretty much what I am stating here is statistics based on the idea that everything is based upon probability(genes change based upon the gametes selected and assuming people have some form of free will they can react differently to environments). I think it is probability though because there is no certainty to what genes would be selected or to how people will always react to their environment, what you describe is only a tendency not an absolute, it could be that there is a .99 probability of a bad environment leading to a bad person but still that means there is a .01 probability that they become good because I tend to doubt the claim that every person in a certain environment ends up at the same set point based upon certain tendencies and variations in said environment that cannot be accounted for in the broad brush of "bad".

Government says that if you disobey our rules you suffer religion says the same. Not all government rules directly relate to personal harm and in some cases the idea of harm is something that it is hard to quantify, suicide is illegal but it is based upon a personal choice, cannibalism is illegal but dead people have no feelings, necrophilia is illegal but still dead people have no feelings, prostitution is illegal but it is a willing exchange between 2 groups, not stopping on a stop sign when nobody wants to cross in front of you is illegal, polygamy is illegal, there are lots of illegal things that do not necessarily harm anyone or at the very least do not reduce anyone's rights if they are done. Religions makes the claims about beliefs because religion is a law to govern beliefs, the domain of religion is belief. The reason why certain worldly actions must be done is because for believers to not do those things shows a lack of belief. Religions ultimately govern belief though and law governs physicality, it may be true that religion has more to govern but still, that is its nature, a person who dreams of raping babies and puppy dogs but who keeps himself looking good by just keeping those thoughts to himself just to be a "lawful citizen" is not really a good person but simply a bad one who just doesn't talk about his ideas. I mean, what about a meek misanthrope who has wet dreams about killing little girls and raping their mothers, is he good? I tend to doubt it, does he act on his baser impulses, perhaps not as we defined him as being meek and for this example too meek to do so, but that does not mean he is good.

The laws given by one's morality have always trumped ones by secular rule. What I am saying is that you will do what you think to be right if you truly believe it to be the proper action, if what you think to be right follows the Christian guide-line then you will be rewarded and if not you will not. It is alright for the KKK by their laws to go around killing everyone but legally it is bad and from the Christian ethic it is bad but by the KKK ethic it is good. If their ethics are bad according to the Christian ethic then they suffer for them, as there are plenty of sources for good ethics, but obviously people can be misled and twisted to purposes that they truly never desired. Really, all I am stating is that people should follow their ethics and rules as they all end up doing to some extent and that they will suffer if those ethics are bad. I mean, a murderer may believe that people should be killed and you are right it would be better in this instance that he surrender to societal ideals but when it comes to divine law it is similar to desire killing but be too meek to do so and to actually kill. Ok, I am rambling but my point is that people will follow their ethics and they will believe they are correct in doing so, societies laws have little to do with the nature of these ethics as the ethic could be right and the law wrong or vice versa but the law ultimately is less than these ethics whatever their purpose may be(which is why the law is often bent to serve these ethics, like in the case of the South, or Nazi Germany, and the bending of laws to these outside beliefs is often the aim of the political parties)

Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on 04 Jun 2006, 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sorry double post

Most people choose to lie to themselves, that shouldn't be a reason to make them suffer, at least a benevolent God wouldn't make them suffer. No, choosing to see the world differently isn't something that just happens, you're saying that they could just make the choice but what you've left out is that it often requires something to happen to them in return.




Doesn't sound very outstanding or remarkable in any way, God might be important to the rest of the world but not me, suprior? More like lower, again has no effect on me. Basically in my opinion he isn't great in any way at all, that is my opinion and as you say a Christian has to see things differently to the way I see them therefore I would have to change my opinion just to get into Heaven which is petty.
---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



"God is remarkable, it >DOESN'T MATTER< if you agree with him or not creating a world is remarkable." and there we have it ladies and gentlemen. You've just imposed an opinion on me, good onya. My point is I don't care if he can do anything in the world that he wants (Apparently he can) I just don't respect him, and here you are blatently telling me my opinion doesn't matter. Ever noticed what those leaders are like (George Bush for example) and no it isn't just George there are millions of people that worship God most likely more, but I don't go for quantity over quality, I don't trust the masses, do you? Many people are idiots, that isn't to say Christians are idiots but they still are. Maybe for you but opinions aren't important in this disscusion are they? Well that's according to opinion isn't it, i've already told you i'm not impressed by the idea of God. Why? I've never read a Bible in my life, why only do things you're sure you can do? Actually a Christian has already PMd me and in my opinion did a much better job without any jargon. No i'm sure there are whole religions that don't hate one another, I mean aren't Buddhists told to find inner peace? And in Wicca if you harm someone you'll get yours no matter how much of a good person you are.



Again not everyone will be able to, not everyone can understand things like that, no matter how simple it is. Yeah but I don't see much wrong with hating Americans, chances are the bastard in question deserves it, lol, kidding but alot of them probably do deserve it.



But as I said you still have a choice you aren't exactly FORCED to stay there and follow those rules, hell you could live on your own in a forest, religion says that you HAVE to follow those rules and be glad about the rewards. Yeah well that's why it's a democracy supposedly you can change it personaly i'd make some of those things you mentioned legal (Prostitution is already legal here and a few other things that aren't over there.) Why not? Because of the way he was made? That doesn't really seem fair at all according to his actions he hasn't hurt anyone and just because he "might" is no reason to think of him as "bad" no matter how sick we might find him.



The KKK believes they are Christians just like Hitler did. So they're following their own skewed version of what Christianity is that might be wrong to you and me but it isn't to them, they just see it as something that needs to be done. But Christianity (Or your version of it) is imposing it's ideals on everyone, it doesn't give enough room for people to make their own decisions

"..it doesn't take much to get to heaven. Read about Abraham & you will find him to be disgusting at times - but God found one time that he believed and said Ok, that's it, I'll take you. (That is my understanding, you may come to a completely different conclusion). Not long after the Chapter 15 covenant God makes with Abram (He changes his name to Abraham later.) the legalism begins."
"The theif on the cross didn't have to accept God into your heart..."

Well, if they turn away from God then it would make sense for God to let them to deal with the consequences of said choice. Seeing the world differently may somewhat be caused by the environment but in the end it is always our choice what happens, we choose our lives and as such we must always bear the consequences of those choices, if divine acceptance was true for all people then what incentive is there to actually try to follow his will? Why be virtuous when sinners are the same, as taking on the burden of being a good Christian is a burden and if people could eat their cake both on this world and the next then why not do both? God obviously must have a system for his people to maintain their faith and loyalty if he wanted to keep them.

What the crap? How is a divine being if he exists not outstanding or remarkable? We are talking about something that could smite you with minimal effort and torture you for all eternity, no mortal king has ever even compared to that power, that is not outstanding or remarkable? Ok, I really cannot get that point of view, as the fact that he is great is almost absolute because there would be nothing in existence more worthy of the title of great if we assume his existence. Most problems with believing in Christian beliefs do not lie in whether or not he is great but rather problems with him existing. God could kick your behind and get away with it, that is superior in the world of most people. Also, the idea of heaven being petty is absurd as the scale we are talking about, eternal paradise and all, is not something that petty really describes, I mean, it is really a minor sacrifice when it comes to the expected reward. I honestly do not think that our thinking styles or worldview are compatible enough to make sense to each other, I mean, it might be possible for me to change but I would have to apply effort and such and I do not see such an endeavor as rewarding. Really though, God isn't great? Even God's weaker and evil nemesis could be described as great. I mean, they fit the definition quite well, once again assuming their existence.
What? How is it not remarkable to create a world, I mean, that fits the definition of remarkable PERFECTLY!! ! Now you say that I am imposing an opinion on you? Dude, creating the world is the most freaking remarkable thing that any thing could do, whether it is by the Big Bang or what have you it is still "worthy of notice" or "unusual" or "extraordinary", dude, I can tell right now that our worldviews are too incompatible to continue this discussion, we cannot even agree to the meanings of common words. Saying that something is remarkable or great does not mean that you respect it necessarily, Hitler was remarkable and great but he was also an evil SOB, it just means that he was outstanding to some extent which can be judged pretty much as true. If your opinion does not match what the nature of things seems to indicate then I would question the validity of your opinion, the words "great" and "remarkable" exist for a reason and little to nothing else can actually honestly be considered greater or more remarkable than the supposed deeds of this deity, I can see reason for doubt because they are extremely great or remarkable almost to the point of seeming falsehood but saying that these acts aren't great or remarkable at least from our standpoint just seems ludicrious to me. I know that I could not create a world nor could anyone I know or know of, such a deed is very worthy of notice compared to anything else that has happened or is happening. The point of that statement is his great impact, he has been respected and trusted by leaders going on from before W and from a standpoint of world popularity he has some greatness, this is not about a trust of the masses, this is about his supposed influence and well-known wisdom. In this discussion we are continually focused on your opinions but the fact is that mine on this issue is relatively useless, it does not speak on terms that yours does and even has ideas that are markedly different than yours and that are completely incompatible with yours. To me a definition is a definition and a truth is a truth, I tend to be mathematical and logical and would rather have a set of premises to work with that are absolute and unchanging. I am all for pushing my limits but I am not for lying and misrepresenting things, the word of God comes from the Bible, and I am not an expert, what you are doing is asking an algebra 2 student to do Calculus BC, it is not that the algebra 2 student doesn't want to do Calculus BC but rather it is beyond their current understanding and as such their attempts will be blind and fruitless, wastes of energy for no reward. There is a difference between blind effort, doing stuff you don't know how to do, and difficult effort, doing things that are very very hard but are conceptually possible. I cannot spontaneously generate information and I am not pulling out a bible just for a discussion, that thing is really long and although a good Christian would read it, I am not really that good. Yeah, that is good that someone knowledgeable contacted you, I will be the first to admit that it is not my place trying to explain religion well, I rather suck at it. Well, I suppose it depends on the compatibility of the religion, some religions are highly compatible with others, Christianity is not one of those as there will be no gods in front of God. Pretty much though, different ideologies when put together will often have some conflict whether they are secular or religious and what you are talking about is the part that I was having difficulty describing anyway.

Well, if we assume it is probability then yes it is theoretically possible for everyone to understand it. After all, there is a probability of certain acts to happen under certain conditions, right? I mean, not everyone will behave the exact same right? Well, if we say that every being has a chance to choose to be Christian(assuming that there is only one moment in time) and that moment is variable as well, then it is theoretically possible for every person to both have the choice all at the same time and choose to be Christian. Hating Americans is like hating any other group, it is not deserved based on nationality(unless hating chinese is also fair). I mean, consider the fact that not everyone you meet is from a country other than America and the fact that a person with a location of "United States" is somewhat likely to be an American, then you should come to the conclusion that attacking a nationality in front of said person is likely to lead to hostilities and being asked to do anatomical impossibilities. Of course, I probably would not do as such and nobody on this forum is likely to do as such either, but truly though, stating as such is not likely to earn much respect as even though you might not like the government of a nation, that does not mean that every single individual of that nation should be judged by said government, each individual should be scorned for their own crimes.

Well, the only thing is that it is impossible to leave a spiritual plane. God is only like faultless law enforcement, if the cops knew what you were doing in that forest then they might not tolerate it because you cannot be your own nation. The only place where you are free from the law is the sea and people do not often live long out there so it is hardly a place to stay. Truths are not democratic, they just are. This has nothing to do with action and everything to do with belief. Laws of belief are only judged by belief, I could have killed, raped, robbed, tortured and done things that would have made Hitler's skin crawl and Stalin curl up into the fetal position but if I renounce such acts with my mind, heart and soul then I am forgiven. This is why belief in God is so important, God does not really care how you act he cares what you believe in, however, you cannot really be true to the belief in abstinance and having all the fun you want on the side, actions are a reflection of beliefs and although some beliefs can be hidden this does not mean they don't exist. It is totally fair within the rules of the game, religions govern belief like I stated earlier.

They do, but do they have much backing for their beliefs? They might be good, they quite probably are not because they seem to be biased without much reason for it. Ok, well, I said a while back that I was not ideal for this task and really, I probably gave the religion a bit of my own authoritarian streak which is why I probably should have never tried to get involved in the first place. I dunno, I know that there are different interpretations of the religion which is why there are both right reverends and left ones on the political spectrum. Really though, I will say it finally, our philosophies are incompatible and cannot understand each other, I am not talking about religion either, we just see the world very differently and it is to an extent where I think it would take a lot of effort on either side for us to see what we mean. Part of this I got from just this conversation but I also took the liberty of looking at your blog, we have radically different thought styles which is something I can tell from your Heros section which has some interesting selections, some I wouldn't select and others that I would select for totally different reasons.

Well, if they turn away from God then it would make sense for God to let them to deal with the consequences of said choice. Seeing the world differently may somewhat be caused by the environment but in the end it is always our choice what happens, we choose our lives and as such we must always bear the consequences of those choices, if divine acceptance was true for all people then what incentive is there to actually try to follow his will? Why be virtuous when sinners are the same, as taking on the burden of being a good Christian is a burden and if people could eat their cake both on this world and the next then why not do both? God obviously must have a system for his people to maintain their faith and loyalty if he wanted to keep them.

What the crap? How is a divine being if he exists not outstanding or remarkable? We are talking about something that could smite you with minimal effort and torture you for all eternity, no mortal king has ever even compared to that power, that is not outstanding or remarkable? Ok, I really cannot get that point of view, as the fact that he is great is almost absolute because there would be nothing in existence more worthy of the title of great if we assume his existence. Most problems with believing in Christian beliefs do not lie in whether or not he is great but rather problems with him existing. God could kick your behind and get away with it, that is superior in the world of most people. Also, the idea of heaven being petty is absurd as the scale we are talking about, eternal paradise and all, is not something that petty really describes, I mean, it is really a minor sacrifice when it comes to the expected reward. I honestly do not think that our thinking styles or worldview are compatible enough to make sense to each other, I mean, it might be possible for me to change but I would have to apply effort and such and I do not see such an endeavor as rewarding. Really though, God isn't great? Even God's weaker and evil nemesis could be described as great. I mean, they fit the definition quite well, once again assuming their existence.
What? How is it not remarkable to create a world, I mean, that fits the definition of remarkable PERFECTLY!! ! Now you say that I am imposing an opinion on you? Dude, creating the world is the most freaking remarkable thing that any thing could do, whether it is by the Big Bang or what have you it is still "worthy of notice" or "unusual" or "extraordinary", dude, I can tell right now that our worldviews are too incompatible to continue this discussion, we cannot even agree to the meanings of common words. Saying that something is remarkable or great does not mean that you respect it necessarily, Hitler was remarkable and great but he was also an evil SOB, it just means that he was outstanding to some extent which can be judged pretty much as true. If your opinion does not match what the nature of things seems to indicate then I would question the validity of your opinion, the words "great" and "remarkable" exist for a reason and little to nothing else can actually honestly be considered greater or more remarkable than the supposed deeds of this deity, I can see reason for doubt because they are extremely great or remarkable almost to the point of seeming falsehood but saying that these acts aren't great or remarkable at least from our standpoint just seems ludicrious to me. I know that I could not create a world nor could anyone I know or know of, such a deed is very worthy of notice compared to anything else that has happened or is happening. The point of that statement is his great impact, he has been respected and trusted by leaders going on from before W and from a standpoint of world popularity he has some greatness, this is not about a trust of the masses, this is about his supposed influence and well-known wisdom. In this discussion we are continually focused on your opinions but the fact is that mine on this issue is relatively useless, it does not speak on terms that yours does and even has ideas that are markedly different than yours and that are completely incompatible with yours. To me a definition is a definition and a truth is a truth, I tend to be mathematical and logical and would rather have a set of premises to work with that are absolute and unchanging. I am all for pushing my limits but I am not for lying and misrepresenting things, the word of God comes from the Bible, and I am not an expert, what you are doing is asking an algebra 2 student to do Calculus BC, it is not that the algebra 2 student doesn't want to do Calculus BC but rather it is beyond their current understanding and as such their attempts will be blind and fruitless, wastes of energy for no reward. There is a difference between blind effort, doing stuff you don't know how to do, and difficult effort, doing things that are very very hard but are conceptually possible. I cannot spontaneously generate information and I am not pulling out a bible just for a discussion, that thing is really long and although a good Christian would read it, I am not really that good. Yeah, that is good that someone knowledgeable contacted you, I will be the first to admit that it is not my place trying to explain religion well, I rather suck at it. Well, I suppose it depends on the compatibility of the religion, some religions are highly compatible with others, Christianity is not one of those as there will be no gods in front of God. Pretty much though, different ideologies when put together will often have some conflict whether they are secular or religious and what you are talking about is the part that I was having difficulty describing anyway.

Well, if we assume it is probability then yes it is theoretically possible for everyone to understand it. After all, there is a probability of certain acts to happen under certain conditions, right? I mean, not everyone will behave the exact same right? Well, if we say that every being has a chance to choose to be Christian(assuming that there is only one moment in time) and that moment is variable as well, then it is theoretically possible for every person to both have the choice all at the same time and choose to be Christian. Hating Americans is like hating any other group, it is not deserved based on nationality(unless hating chinese is also fair). I mean, consider the fact that not everyone you meet is from a country other than America and the fact that a person with a location of "United States" is somewhat likely to be an American, then you should come to the conclusion that attacking a nationality in front of said person is likely to lead to hostilities and being asked to do anatomical impossibilities. Of course, I probably would not do as such and nobody on this forum is likely to do as such either, but truly though, stating as such is not likely to earn much respect as even though you might not like the government of a nation, that does not mean that every single individual of that nation should be judged by said government, each individual should be scorned for their own crimes.

Well, the only thing is that it is impossible to leave a spiritual plane. God is only like faultless law enforcement, if the cops knew what you were doing in that forest then they might not tolerate it because you cannot be your own nation. The only place where you are free from the law is the sea and people do not often live long out there so it is hardly a place to stay. Truths are not democratic, they just are. This has nothing to do with action and everything to do with belief. Laws of belief are only judged by belief, I could have killed, raped, robbed, tortured and done things that would have made Hitler's skin crawl and Stalin curl up into the fetal position but if I renounce such acts with my mind, heart and soul then I am forgiven. This is why belief in God is so important, God does not really care how you act he cares what you believe in, however, you cannot really be true to the belief in abstinance and having all the fun you want on the side, actions are a reflection of beliefs and although some beliefs can be hidden this does not mean they don't exist. It is totally fair within the rules of the game, religions govern belief like I stated earlier.

They do, but do they have much backing for their beliefs? They might be good, they quite probably are not because they seem to be biased without much reason for it. Ok, well, I said a while back that I was not ideal for this task and really, I probably gave the religion a bit of my own authoritarian streak which is why I probably should have never tried to get involved in the first place. I dunno, I know that there are different interpretations of the religion which is why there are both right reverends and left ones on the political spectrum. Really though, I will say it finally, our philosophies are incompatible and cannot understand each other, I am not talking about religion either, we just see the world very differently and it is to an extent where I think it would take a lot of effort on either side for us to see what we mean. Part of this I got from just this conversation but I also took the liberty of looking at your blog, we have radically different thought styles which is something I can tell from your Heros section which has some interesting selections, some I wouldn't select and others that I would select for totally different reasons.

This can be disproved by the almighty sentence "That's your opinion". Seriously though God does suck in my opinion, or at least your version of him, the other ones I know of are either bland or even worse. Your version I would seriously like to have a pine cone stuck up his arse.



Yeah well this isn't just about Religion, it's about Psychology, Genetics, a whole bunch of other s**t that neither of us have any experience in. All people with ASD tend to do that to some degree, you've just got to realise when you're doing it and stop it. Why not? I understand where you're comming from, I just don't agree with it. Haha yeah, and that's only a dim view of what i'm really like, like taking all the best bits and then using it as representation.

Ok, fine, agree to disagree. I know I am not going to get anywhere with this as we cannot agree. Yeah, you might want to put a pine cone up his arse simply because he is to some extent a reflection of my values and I can be a complete a***hole.

Nihilism is just the belief in nothing, there is no orthodoxy or code for it, anyone can be a nihilist if they felt like it and really most people have occasional nihilistic moods such as some bouts of depression and the like. I simply have problems with the fact that I might be misrepresenting something, I am not particularly religious at this point in my life and as such am not really knowledgeable or interested enough to learn about deeper questions in the faith. I really am no expert and have limited knowledge on this stuff myself, most of these ideas really come from the fact I live in the highly conservative bible belt.

Well, it is not like spirituallity has to be a free market where different groups compete, there is only one absolute truth and following it is the only way to get success. The split personality thing is a difficult question as it calls in the question of souls, it could be that that person would have to go to limbo or something or that one of those personalities is the soul and the other isn't and the other personality is a challenge for that soul or that there is soul division whenever there are multiple personalities each has its own soul(I tend to doubt the last one though)

Well, I have studied psychology for a test and I took an advanced biology class so I know about those things to some extent, I have never taken a religion class before though. Yeah, I think we both realize where the other side is coming from to some extent but we cannot really come to terms with the others ideas, they just don't make sense to us. Ok, am I supposed to be freaked out about that? Everyone only shows their best parts even lying to make themselves seem better, just think about dating sites jess2782 might use all sorts of euphemisms and such to describe herself, all to make a better truth and give a better looking representation of herself. Including things to make her picture look less fat and stuff like that. Really though, your reason for liking those people would be more socially acceptable than mine.